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Lance beat cancer, and will beat the cancer on his team: Alberto "The Cancer" Conta..

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Lance beat cancer, and will beat the cancer on his team: Alberto "The Cancer" Conta..

Old 07-14-09, 12:50 PM
  #76  
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cept... they'd not be qualified nor allowed to compete in the ProTour, turning pro doesn't happen because you said "I AM A PRO NOW" and 'sign up'. Not all pros get invited to the big Tours either.
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Old 07-14-09, 01:15 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer View Post
cept... they'd not be qualified nor allowed to compete in the ProTour, turning pro doesn't happen because you said "I AM A PRO NOW" and 'sign up'. Not all pros get invited to the big Tours either.
Ummm, yea, i think that was my response to the quote.

The question was why anyone other than Kasaki rider with no other way to join the Tour, to which I responded that I think there are a lot more than Kazak riders who wanna ride the Tour. English is tough to understand sometime, I know.

And by the way, when you are a cyclist in Europe, turning pro is a bigger deal than riding the Tour De France.
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Old 07-14-09, 02:28 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
Ummm, yea, i think that was my response to the quote.

The question was why anyone other than Kasaki rider with no other way to join the Tour, to which I responded that I think there are a lot more than Kazak riders who wanna ride the Tour. English is tough to understand sometime, I know.

And by the way, when you are a cyclist in Europe, turning pro is a bigger deal than riding the Tour De France.
no, that wasn't your response to the question, but that's ok. Your answer didnt make sense anyways.

Ok, let me rephrase:

What riders worth putting together for a real shot at the tour would want to ride for Vino, even in support of AC, if Vino could get him to commit, which he wouldnt be able to?

Answer: few to none.

Vino won't be able to line up enough quality support/domestiques to give AC a fighting chance. The contenders going it alone have a tough time, even if they may be the current "best". AC wouldsnt ride for that team because of Vino's history, and the issues that have already existed with Astanas sponsorship.

Personally, I don't think you're who you've claimed to be. And I don't think you're lemonde (he cant speak clearly either, but it's not due to his command of english).

I think you're Vino.
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Old 07-14-09, 09:31 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Laggard View Post
And that is a load of horse apples. It was exciting last year and the year before. The tour was exciting before Armstrong ever road it, before he was born and before you were born.

You 99ers know nothing of the pre-armstrong tdf.
Well said good sir.

Riders like Coppi, Merckx and even Hinualt used to regularly launch attacks on flat stages, hilly stages, mountain stages...they're all there for the winning. It bugs me that riding these days has become so formulaic. And especially this year where there are really only 3 mountain stages where real time can be taken and one of them finishes on a relatively mild Cat 1 climb, chances are few. Maybe Contador (who should be the leader on this team by ANY measure) has plans to ride a different kind of Tour. Maybe he's right, he's certainly earned the right to try whatever he likes.

As far as following, in Armstrongs words "the Plan" goes, the plan for 2 years has been Contador wins. Try following that for a while and if it doesn't work then good, you can have your chance.

The bottom line; if Armstrong had plans to win this Tour any number of teams would have taken him in a heartbeat. To come to Astana with claims of just trying to raise awareness of his charity and then to slowly and surely attack his main opponent in such a back-handed and slimy manner is truly pathetic.

He's a tarnished champion in my view.
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Old 07-15-09, 05:18 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by spudlauncher View Post
Well said good sir.

Riders like Coppi, Merckx and even Hinualt used to regularly launch attacks on flat stages, hilly stages, mountain stages...they're all there for the winning. It bugs me that riding these days has become so formulaic. And especially this year where there are really only 3 mountain stages where real time can be taken and one of them finishes on a relatively mild Cat 1 climb, chances are few. Maybe Contador (who should be the leader on this team by ANY measure) has plans to ride a different kind of Tour. Maybe he's right, he's certainly earned the right to try whatever he likes.

As far as following, in Armstrongs words "the Plan" goes, the plan for 2 years has been Contador wins. Try following that for a while and if it doesn't work then good, you can have your chance.

The bottom line; if Armstrong had plans to win this Tour any number of teams would have taken him in a heartbeat. To come to Astana with claims of just trying to raise awareness of his charity and then to slowly and surely attack his main opponent in such a back-handed and slimy manner is truly pathetic.

He's a tarnished champion in my view.
Well your view is shared by 3% of the world's population I'm sure, the rest think he is a great champion, including your boy Merckx. It's funny you worshipped Hinalt when Hinalt basically did the exact same thing to Greg Lemond that you claim Armstrong is doing to Contador. Armstrong in this case wants to beat Contador, rather than have Contador ride for him. Let the best man win basically, and Contador has yet to prove he is better than Armstrong. Any ways it's all going to boil down to the last Individual time trial. Contador is going to need a lot more time on Armstrong if he wants to win.
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Old 07-15-09, 05:18 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by spudlauncher View Post
Well said good sir.

Riders like Coppi, Merckx and even Hinualt used to regularly launch attacks on flat stages, hilly stages, mountain stages...they're all there for the winning. It bugs me that riding these days has become so formulaic. And especially this year where there are really only 3 mountain stages where real time can be taken and one of them finishes on a relatively mild Cat 1 climb, chances are few. Maybe Contador (who should be the leader on this team by ANY measure) has plans to ride a different kind of Tour. Maybe he's right, he's certainly earned the right to try whatever he likes.

As far as following, in Armstrongs words "the Plan" goes, the plan for 2 years has been Contador wins. Try following that for a while and if it doesn't work then good, you can have your chance.

The bottom line; if Armstrong had plans to win this Tour any number of teams would have taken him in a heartbeat. To come to Astana with claims of just trying to raise awareness of his charity and then to slowly and surely attack his main opponent in such a back-handed and slimy manner is truly pathetic.

He's a tarnished champion in my view
.

Exactly right!

You have to look at this whole mess from day one. Look at what LA said and did, and when he did it.
He started out saying that he just wanted to raise awareness for his cancer program and possible help out a cycling team by supporting them and their lead rider(s), never for even a minute suggesting that he would be anything close to the captain.
As the months passed his confidence has grown and is head has swollen to gargantuan proportions. He believes his own press at this point.

He ended up being able to ride better than even he expected so now he has decided to take over. I hope he gets the big embarrassment he deserves... pride cometh before a fall
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Old 07-15-09, 09:41 AM
  #82  
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I can't believe that I'm wading into this contentious pool, but . . .

I think that Lance needs to be careful in saying the team will support the "strongest" rider. Maybe choose a different word. "Best," "most deserving," or something. So far, the time gaps back and forth between he and Alberto are:

Stage 1: In a TT, which is about "strength" -- no peloton, no drafting, no team assistance -- AC finished second to the best time-trialist on the planet, and put :22 into LA. Strong, indeed.

Stage 4: LA gets :41 on AC for being part of the Columbia split. Lance didn't work a bit -- he sat in while a dozen other riders left it all on the road to get some time. Smart? Damn right. Smart like a fox. Showing a race awareness that AC doesn't have yet. But those :41 have nothing to do with LA being strong.

Stage 7: AC grabs back :21 when he shoots up an HC climb like his bike has a motor. LA doesn't go with him. Because LA was being a good teammate? Probably. Could LA have followed if he wanted? I don't know. I know that some of the strongest climbers in the world didn't/couldn't. In any event, a definite show of strength by AC.

Will LA turn it on in the Alps, and show that he is the strongest? I don't know. I am utterly amazed at what he has done so far, so it wouldn't surprise me. LA is smarter than AC. He may be a better teammate. LA may be lots of things that AC is not. But, through today, in the Tour, I see no evidence that he is "stronger" than AC.
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Old 07-15-09, 09:54 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by eriksbliss View Post
Will LA turn it on in the Alps, and show that he is the strongest? I don't know. I am utterly amazed at what he has done so far, so it wouldn't surprise me. LA is smarter than AC. He may be a better teammate. LA may be lots of things that AC is not. But, through today, in the Tour, I see no evidence that he is "stronger" than AC.

That's a strong and honest appraisal of the situation so far.
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Old 07-15-09, 11:30 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by eriksbliss View Post
I can't believe that I'm wading into this contentious pool, but . . .

I think that Lance needs to be careful in saying the team will support the "strongest" rider. Maybe choose a different word. "Best," "most deserving," or something. So far, the time gaps back and forth between he and Alberto are:

Stage 1: In a TT, which is about "strength" -- no peloton, no drafting, no team assistance -- AC finished second to the best time-trialist on the planet, and put :22 into LA. Strong, indeed.

Stage 4: LA gets :41 on AC for being part of the Columbia split. Lance didn't work a bit -- he sat in while a dozen other riders left it all on the road to get some time. Smart? Damn right. Smart like a fox. Showing a race awareness that AC doesn't have yet. But those :41 have nothing to do with LA being strong.

Stage 7: AC grabs back :21 when he shoots up an HC climb like his bike has a motor. LA doesn't go with him. Because LA was being a good teammate? Probably. Could LA have followed if he wanted? I don't know. I know that some of the strongest climbers in the world didn't/couldn't. In any event, a definite show of strength by AC.

Will LA turn it on in the Alps, and show that he is the strongest? I don't know. I am utterly amazed at what he has done so far, so it wouldn't surprise me. LA is smarter than AC. He may be a better teammate. LA may be lots of things that AC is not. But, through today, in the Tour, I see no evidence that he is "stronger" than AC.

Stage 1 may have not been the best of comparisons. When Lance & Levi rode the temperatures were 10 degrees hotter (90 F) than when the last riders went. The last riders also had a tailwind the last 4 kilometers. Contador would have also had the advantage of time checks.

Stage 4 may have actually been partly due to strength. Several riders (supposedly) said Contador caused the break by either not paying attention or being unable to ride strong enough into the wind.
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Old 07-15-09, 01:53 PM
  #85  
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^^^

I hear you on S4, if that is what happened. I read the same comments. I tried to see from the video if it was AC who was first off the back of the gap, but couldn't tell. Any video I saw of Contador after the gap formed showed him not at the front of the back group.

On S1, I don't get that heat and wind would have muchm if anything, to do with it. It's a twenty-minute ride, so the heat won't whip you -- indeed, I bet I could find exercise physiologists who would say that heat would help you warm up for the short effort. Also, as has been explained in numerous threads on these forums, any wind on an out-and-back course (which S1 essentially was) will always work to a net disadvantage compared to no wind. That is to say, and as I look at the map, a tailwind in the last four kilometers is a headwind in the six kilometers in the middle of the course, and you spend more time (if not distance) in the headwind than the tailwind.
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Old 07-15-09, 04:12 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by eriksbliss View Post
^^^

I hear you on S4, if that is what happened. I read the same comments. I tried to see from the video if it was AC who was first off the back of the gap, but couldn't tell. Any video I saw of Contador after the gap formed showed him not at the front of the back group.

On S1, I don't get that heat and wind would have muchm if anything, to do with it. It's a twenty-minute ride, so the heat won't whip you -- indeed, I bet I could find exercise physiologists who would say that heat would help you warm up for the short effort. Also, as has been explained in numerous threads on these forums, any wind on an out-and-back course (which S1 essentially was) will always work to a net disadvantage compared to no wind. That is to say, and as I look at the map, a tailwind in the last four kilometers is a headwind in the six kilometers in the middle of the course, and you spend more time (if not distance) in the headwind than the tailwind.
This is from John Wilcockson (http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/a...-for-armstrong)

"But let’s get back to Armstrong’s ride. He and Leipheimer raced in the hottest part of the day when the mercury was close to 90 degrees Fahrenheit, while the temperature dropped about 10 degrees over three hours before Evans, Contador and Saxo Bank’s stage winner Fabian Cancellara did their time trials.

Those cooler conditions combined with a breeze that picked up, and helped the later starters over the final 4km, probably cost Armstrong (and Leipheimer) about 10 seconds."

And looking at the course map, it's not an out & back course. I could see having a tailwind the last part of the course which was along the coast. I once did a duathlon where the wind was constantly changing. On a circular bike leg, there was a headwind the entire way.

And as far as the temperature, yes heart rate is going to higher when it is 10 degrees higher. Otherwise, velodromes would be heated to 100!
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Old 07-17-09, 01:54 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
He was also meant to do a transparency thing about all his tests. He went back on that and isnt doing it anymore.

And your right, if he was fighting for Cancer he would gain more respect.
Too bad people like myself saw through him from day 1 in 1999 and not the rest of you'all.

Lance's cancer foundation, although it has done good for millions, has always been a PR thing for Lance.
I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, mostly because he joined the team with arguably the best rider in the world right now. My hope was that he would support Contador and just be seen at the tour. I can't say I really expected that, but I certainly was going to give him the chance to prove me wrong.

P.S. I know this shows just how much I keep up with the news, but whatever happened to Basso? Is he still racing at all?
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Old 07-17-09, 06:37 AM
  #88  
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Basso is still racing. He rode the Giro in May/June, but opted not to ride in the Tour.
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Old 07-17-09, 09:35 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by DenisMenchov View Post
Armstrong in this case wants to beat Contador, rather than have Contador ride for him. Let the best man win basically,
If that were true, then he would have no reason to complain that Contador "didn't follow the plan" in stage (oops) 7.

Last edited by cooker; 07-18-09 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 07-17-09, 09:47 PM
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I don't have a favourite in the Tour, nor do I hero-worship any cyclist. Ergo, I find it incomprehensible that there are people who will defend Lance no matter what he says or does. Hell, I think half the people in the US think it's called the Tour de Lance. There are other riders....there are other teams.

To hear some of y'all post about Lance, I have no trouble believing that you would kneel and bob for him. Gladly and Gratefully.
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Old 07-17-09, 10:17 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
If that were true, then he would have no reason to complain that Contador "didn't follow the plan" in stage 4.
Contador did something wrong in the TTT?
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Old 07-17-09, 10:40 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
Contador did something wrong in the TTT?
No, but he might do something wrong in the ITT. I think the ITT will be more of a mind game with him vs. Armstrong than the climbs.

Armstrong is showing great form so far. Today's stage with him at the front part of the Peloton was great riding for an old man. They even turned the gas on for a while and started blowing some people off the back. He has won tons of long TDF time trails, so I imagine if he has it in him he might be right up there in the ITT and I think he might be able to put some time on AC.
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Old 07-18-09, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro View Post
Contador did something wrong in the TTT?
Sorry, wrong stage. Seven.

Last edited by cooker; 07-18-09 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 07-18-09, 08:45 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Sorry, wrong stage. Seven.
I think most people knew what you meant, but I questioned for the potential benefit of the few who might not have. I also thought there was an outside chance you had a scoop that we'd missed.
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