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Felt bad for Hincapie

Old 07-19-09, 08:43 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Suzie Green View Post
Without reading all the other posts, yes you hit the nail on the head. I too felt that Astana was doing nothing but "soft pedaling" in an attempt to semi-control the pack and to allow George to gain time. When it came down to the end, George should have been in individual TT mode to try and gain as much time as he could instead of wasting time trying to rally the rest of the break. He has no one to blame but Garmin and himself for missing out on the yellow jersey. Putting the fault on Astana is misplaced.
I think Cavendish's immaturity contributed to George missing out on yellow. He gave Garmin bulletin board material with his earlier comments about them, and he queued up for a meaningless sprint at the end that pulled the rest forward. He deserved being relegated as well. He needs to grow up.

What goes around comes around in cycling, and that's what Garmin was doing to Columbia. You chase only for a tactical reason, and with and absence of an obvious tactical reason for Garmin, look no further than other motivation, such as payback.
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Old 07-19-09, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Cateye View Post
Garmin should be shot for what they did.
Yeah, Garmin should lose their 501(c)(3) status!

And here I thought it was a bike race.

December 28, 2003. Cardinals (4-12) beat Vikings (9-7) on a last-play touchdown. Vikings are eliminated from the playoffs. Cardinals had nothing to gain by winning -- indeed, they could have hurt their position in the next year's draft. But nobody questioned why the Cardinals would play hard. And nobody from the Vikings said that the Cardinals' effort showed a lack of respect for the Vikings.

As George's BFF said on Stage 17 of the 2004 TdF: "No gifts."
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Old 07-19-09, 11:39 AM
  #78  
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if Hincapie wanted yellow it was there, 5 seconds up the road.
Yellow Jersey to George, "I'm here, but I'm really up there 5 seconds ahead!"
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Old 07-19-09, 12:23 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by orcanova View Post
I think Cavendish's immaturity contributed to George missing out on yellow. He gave Garmin bulletin board material with his earlier comments about them, and he queued up for a meaningless sprint at the end that pulled the rest forward. He deserved being relegated as well. He needs to grow up.

What goes around comes around in cycling, and that's what Garmin was doing to Columbia. You chase only for a tactical reason, and with and absence of an obvious tactical reason for Garmin, look no further than other motivation, such as payback.
i think stapleton is just as guilty and maybe more so. columbia wanted to play games and now they are on the receiving end. funny how that worked out .

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Old 07-19-09, 01:01 PM
  #80  
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Bottom line: the pursuit of a sentimental Yellow Jersey for Hincapie has probably cost Columbia the Green in Paris.
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Old 07-19-09, 01:17 PM
  #81  
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^Do you think Cavendish threw his bike to help George? Its possible, but he shouldn't have been queuing up a sprint on Hincapie's heels, for any reason. If he was guilty of both, his head is clearly not in the game. The kid needs to shut up, show some respect to other riders and teams, and race like a man, not a child.
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Old 07-19-09, 01:48 PM
  #82  
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It is a competition. Teams try to beat other teams. Hincapie should have ridden a few seconds faster. No reason to feel sorry for him. He's feeling sorry for himself well enough.
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Old 07-19-09, 01:49 PM
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No, Cavendish didn't hinder Hushovd to help Hincapie but he was part of a team attempt to soft-pedal- yet still take the points. The DQ might have been a little harsh but such things are common in the world of sprinting.

I disagree about the need to sprint- it's about the team, not Cavendish or Hincapie. It was a grave error to allow sentiment to obscure the obvious goal of the Green jersey. Stuff like Hincapie's legacy and Cavendish's victory tally should be secondary to that.
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Old 07-19-09, 01:51 PM
  #84  
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there were no points involved at that point. The sprint points were taken ahead of them...
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Old 07-19-09, 02:25 PM
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http://www.letour.fr/2009/TDF/LIVE/u...ent/index.html
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Old 07-19-09, 02:38 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by orcanova View Post
there were no points involved at that point. The sprint points were taken ahead of them...
What are you talking about? Thor jumped from a 5-point lead for green to an 18-point lead, by getting 13 sprint points, and Cavendish got shut out by being relegated - so there certainly were still sprint points available (even if they were fighting for 13th, not first, on the stage).

The sad thing is, what should have been either a 4 or 6 sprint point differential - which means a green jersey contest all the way through the Camps Elysees finish - became an 18-point differential through a judge's decision.
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Old 07-19-09, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Allen H View Post
What are you talking about? Thor jumped from a 5-point lead for green to an 18-point lead, by getting 13 sprint points, and Cavendish got shut out by being relegated - so there certainly were still sprint points available (even if they were fighting for 13th, not first, on the stage).

The sad thing is, what should have been either a 4 or 6 sprint point differential - which means a green jersey contest all the way through the Camps Elysees finish - became an 18-point differential through a judge's decision.
I stand corrected: 4 points for 12th place in a mountain stage, and 3 points for 13th. So at stake was 1 point between the two...

http://www.letour.fr/2009/TDF/COURSE...glement_us.pdf (page 44)
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Old 07-19-09, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by orcanova View Post
I stand corrected: 4 points for 12th place in a mountain stage, and 3 points for 13th. So at stake was 1 point between the two...

http://www.letour.fr/2009/TDF/COURSE...glement_us.pdf (page 44)
Actually to stand corrected: 13th place in yesterday's stage was worth 13 points. That was awarded to Thor Hushovd & enough to take the green jersey back.

In my opinion, tactically, Garmin can say it was to keep the pressure on Astana; because under having AGR2 in the yellow, Astana would be forced to ride up front today. However, I think it is more pride of one US team vs another US team. Could you imagine the pain Garmin would have felt to see Columbia start the race today with Yellow, Green & White?? 3 of the 4 jerseys...

As it turned out, GH did not get yellow & Cav lost green, but still that would be painful.

One final point that has not been brought on up on this thread yet; did anyone know that George H was one of the 3 founders of Team Garmin?? I am not sure if he was bought out or what; but you ought to be careful what you do to the guy who is helping fund your bills.
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Old 07-19-09, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Porter20 View Post
Actually to stand corrected: 13th place in yesterday's stage was worth 13 points. That was awarded to Thor Hushovd & enough to take the green jersey back.
As I said above, Thor already had green by 5 points, so the additional 13 points gave him an insurmountable lead of 18 points (barring a major mechanical on the last stage).
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Old 07-19-09, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Allen H View Post
As I said above, Thor already had green by 5 points, so the additional 13 points gave him an insurmountable lead of 18 points (barring a major mechanical on the last stage).
Right on.
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Old 07-19-09, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Allen H View Post
As I said above, Thor already had green by 5 points, so the additional 13 points gave him an insurmountable lead of 18 points (barring a major mechanical on the last stage).
Yah that's too bad for Cav, but maybe that's what you get for calling other "junior racers."
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Old 07-19-09, 10:11 PM
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According to the rules as I read them, 4 points for 12th place, 3 points for 13th. Are you sure the difference in points wasn't from intermediate sprints during the day that Cav had accumulated then lost from the relegation?
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Old 07-20-09, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by fmw View Post
It is a competition. Teams try to beat other teams. Hincapie should have ridden a few seconds faster. No reason to feel sorry for him. He's feeling sorry for himself well enough.
But you see there are these people called fans which generate money for cycling and sports in general, and root for their favorite team / player, and don't like seeing them lose. It's ok to feel bad for a player.

And I think it would be a fair statement to say that in cycling and more so the TDF in general, it isn't so cut and dry as "teams try to beat other teams" Sir.
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Old 07-20-09, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by orcanova View Post
According to the rules as I read them, 4 points for 12th place, 3 points for 13th. Are you sure the difference in points wasn't from intermediate sprints during the day that Cav had accumulated then lost from the relegation?
Positive; Cavendish never rode for intermediate sprint points on hilly stages (Thor gathered some points at intermediate sprints, but not Cavendish). Thor got 13 points for finishing 13th on stage 13.

Your cite is for sprint points in mountain stages, not a flatter stage that sets up for a pack sprint finish.
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Old 07-20-09, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Allen H View Post
Positive; Cavendish never rode for intermediate sprint points on hilly stages (Thor gathered some points at intermediate sprints, but not Cavendish). Thor got 13 points for finishing 13th on stage 13.

Your cite is for sprint points in mountain stages, not a flatter stage that sets up for a pack sprint finish.
Yep, you're right...14 pts. for 12th, 13 pts for 13th and 12 pts for 14th. I read it wrong.
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Old 07-20-09, 10:05 AM
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here's my take on all this.
Neither Garmin, AG2R, Astana, Lotto or any other team (except Columbia) is riding for George.
As much as I would have liked to see him take Yellow it wasn't up to any team other
than Columbia to work towards that goal.
As the badger said "No Gifts".
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Old 07-20-09, 10:59 AM
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If anyone ever needs an object lesson for what happens in team cycling when you try to work two conflicting goals into the same stage (or, in effect, do one half-assed or half-hearted b/c you still want the other objective to happen) - just play this stage and Columbia's effort and outcome over & over & over.

I'm convinced the relegation would never have happened if Columbia's sprint train had been going all-out for Cav. Instead, they were looking around, trying to both help Cav across for green points but not eat into Hincapie's slim margin for yellow.

You can't serve two different masters at the same time...
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Old 07-20-09, 11:54 AM
  #98  
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Totally in agreement with those who say George lost his own race ... no blame to go around for other riders or teams. All he had to do when Ivanov went was chase. Whether he caught him or not, or dragged other stage challengers along, so what? Instead, when Ivanov attacked, everyone else, including Hincapie, sat up and looked around like, "Now what do we do?" Then they started to play games with each other. For all his experience, Hincapie blew his own yellow jersey.
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Old 07-20-09, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by lotek View Post
here's my take on all this.
Neither Garmin, AG2R, Astana, Lotto or any other team (except Columbia) is riding for George.
As much as I would have liked to see him take Yellow it wasn't up to any team other
than Columbia to work towards that goal.
As the badger said "No Gifts".
It's a small man who blames negative racing for his own failure. Especially when there was no negative racing. Hincapie is a whiner with a loser's mentality.

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Old 07-20-09, 02:12 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Allen H View Post
If anyone ever needs an object lesson for what happens in team cycling when you try to work two conflicting goals into the same stage (or, in effect, do one half-assed or half-hearted b/c you still want the other objective to happen) - just play this stage and Columbia's effort and outcome over & over & over.

I'm convinced the relegation would never have happened if Columbia's sprint train had been going all-out for Cav. Instead, they were looking around, trying to both help Cav across for green points but not eat into Hincapie's slim margin for yellow.

You can't serve two different masters at the same time...
+1 - a painful lesson but a lesson nonetheless... will be going to Ventoux Friday night. I'll tell Bob we've concluded he was a dope for trying to get both jerseys and should have stuck with green ...

PS - my bet is it was the boys up front organizing a "spring slow" on their own (Stapleton isn't usually on the radios I'm told). So +1 to the person who cited Cav as being a bit immature - he got too greedy and will have to wait til next year (with four stages in his pocket again ... hmm not a bad "bad year" )
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