Originally Posted by erader
(Post 9338025)
what bruyneel tried to do was hamstring the tour champion and place armstorng as team captain. if lance had taken yellow on arcalis bruyneel's machinations could have very well cost astana the yellow jersey.
all this having the yellow jersey ride to place domestiques on the podium is just more lance twitter BS :thumb:. ed rader For all of the talk about AC being stupid and not understanding tactics, he did understand that he had to get the yellow before Lance. And he took matters into his own hands. He should have attacked sooner on arcalis and left no doubt about it. He would have been up 5 minutes on the field going into the TT. |
As per botto:
INCORRECT |
Originally Posted by Romans8:28
(Post 9338438)
"He (Contador) has worked very hard, earning the right to represent our team as the leader this July."
Buryneel on 6/26/09 YEAH RIGHT........... Can anyone show me where the "team" actually acted in the best interest of Contador and treated him as a true leader? Dropping in him in a wind split peloton and actually putting riders in front to drive up a time gap? Keeping him “throttled” from attacking rivals on mountain top finishes under the guise of hurting his team? The only time the teams interests aligned with “supporting” Contador was when they coincided with supporting Lance. The TTT was important to LA, driving/controlling the peloton was important to LA, etc. It was obvious to me that from the beginning, it was JB and LA plan to get Lance into yellow ASAP AHEAD of Contador. If they had been successful in doing that, Lance would have been anointed “temporary” leader (just pretending) and use it as further justification to throttle Contador. The longer Lance stayed in yellow the more it would have become impossible for AC to attack without being heavily, heavily criticized. AC knew this and took matters into his own hands. |
Originally Posted by OrionKhan
(Post 9343151)
For all of the talk about AC being stupid and not understanding tactics, he did understand that he had to get the yellow before Lance. And he took matters into his own hands. He should have attacked sooner on arcalis and left no doubt about it. He would have been up 5 minutes on the field going into the TT.
Well, not exactly. I see Bruyneel as acting a little more benignly, happy to have either in yellow. Only he's pissed at Contador because he doesn't Follow The Plan. I'm with you all the way, though, on the race to be first in yellow and Contador taking it into his own hands. If Contador had followed the plan, Lance would have been his main threat, not Andy. And with team dynamics in the mix, Lance would have been the far more formidable opponent. Then again, dropping a team leader in a wind split is pretty tacky, maybe even suspicious. Regardless, Contador's not nearly as dumb as a lot of us think he is. He is winning. |
Originally Posted by DMF
(Post 9338851)
I absolutely agree, except that if you read his quotes carefully, LA always said that AC is the "best rider". Of course he also said that he (Lance) is (or was) riding "to win", but that doesn't contradict his opinion of AC.
There a plenty of parallel situations. Jens Voigt, for instance, is referred to as the Saxobank "team leader", even though he may be the 3rd (or even 4th) best rider on the team. What most of the people here seem unable to grasp is that a team leader - by definition - is not out only for himself. For instance the other day when Contador attacked without needing to and dropped his own team mate. This only hurt Astana and didn't really help Contador at all. The thing is that Contador is a really good guy but he has these impulsive tendencies and riding style. The way that he naturally rides he would almost be better off on a team that is not so strong. He could still win on his own without that much help from his teammates. |
Originally Posted by oldbobcat
(Post 9350405)
Then again, dropping a team leader in a wind split is pretty tacky, maybe even suspicious.
Nothing at all questionable about what happened that day, AC just got unlucky. |
Originally Posted by Hezz
(Post 9351622)
This illustrates the problems that Astana has with Contador. They know that physically he is the strongest rider on the team. But he doesn't quite seem to have the maturity, mental discipline, and personality of a team leader. Not only must the team leader be strong on the bike, but they must have a strong sense of tactics and respect for the other riders. After all, the other riders work their butts off to help the main GC guy so some moves can be harmful to other riders.
For instance the other day when Contador attacked without needing to and dropped his own team mate. This only hurt Astana and didn't really help Contador at all. The thing is that Contador is a really good guy but he has these impulsive tendencies and riding style. The way that he naturally rides he would almost be better off on a team that is not so strong. He could still win on his own without that much help from his teammates. As its played out, nobody other than AC was strong enough to beat A. Schleck. And Kloden clearly wasn't as strong as Armstrong. Astana has two riders on the podium. Not inspite of AC's tactic deficiencies, but because AC and LA have demonstrated that they two of the top three riders consistently over 20 stages thus far. |
Originally Posted by TommyL
(Post 9351681)
What was he supposed to do, drop back across the split and pull back the peloton single handedly? The only thing that would've accomplished was to put Lance 40 seconds back (off the podium?).
Nothing at all questionable about what happened that day, AC just got unlucky. ed rader |
Originally Posted by erader
(Post 9351770)
just like lance got lucky when he hitched up with columbia and, oh, left a team leader in the wind. lance knew to usurp the team leader he needed to get into yellow first....but on arcalis contador would have none of it.
ed rader |
Originally Posted by oldbobcat
(Post 9350405)
I see Bruyneel as acting a little more benignly, happy to have either in yellow. Only he's pissed at Contador because he doesn't Follow The Plan. I'm with you all the way, though, on the race to be first in yellow and Contador taking it into his own hands. If Contador had followed the plan, Lance would have been his main threat, not Andy. And with team dynamics in the mix, Lance would have been the far more formidable opponent.
From that perspective, the yellow Lance might have worn would have been strictly honorary, and they would likely have looked for the first opportunity to give it away. Then again, dropping a team leader in a wind split is pretty tacky, maybe even suspicious. Lance was ahead of the split. He couldn't see it form, much less do anything about it. Regardless, Contador's not nearly as dumb as a lot of us think he is. He is winning. He's not dumb, but I can't vouch for certain posters... |
What I want to know is if LA and JB get their own private room during the tour.
|
Originally Posted by daveF
(Post 9337582)
He was hired by the right DS. Bruyneel was very conscious of him before his hired him for the 07 season. Unfortunately, Bruyneel has not been able to bring up his IQ or tactics.
The outcome to the tour could have easily been very different. The kid is extremely strong and is definitely the future dominator of the tour. But he still has A LOT to learn. If he had half a brain he would stick with Bruyneel for the radioshack team so his training can continue. |
Originally Posted by Hezz
(Post 9351622)
This illustrates the problems that Astana has with Contador. They know that physically he is the strongest rider on the team. But he doesn't quite seem to have the maturity, mental discipline, and personality of a team leader. Not only must the team leader be strong on the bike, but they must have a strong sense of tactics and respect for the other riders. After all, the other riders work their butts off to help the main GC guy so some moves can be harmful to other riders.
For instance the other day when Contador attacked without needing to and dropped his own team mate. This only hurt Astana and didn't really help Contador at all. The thing is that Contador is a really good guy but he has these impulsive tendencies and riding style. The way that he naturally rides he would almost be better off on a team that is not so strong. He could still win on his own without that much help from his teammates. |
Speculation and hindsight.
Inadmissible. |
[QUOTE=DMF;9352945]Look, what everyone here seems to forget is that these guys have been riding together for the better part of a year. While we out here had no idea, within Astana they knew exactly who was stronger and where. No way they expected Armstrong (et al.) to match him in the mountains, and maybe not even the TT. This whole "four potential winners" gas is simply smart tactics. Don't let your opponents know what you're really up to.
From that perspective, the yellow Lance might have worn would have been strictly honorary, and they would likely have looked for the first opportunity to give it away. If that's the case, why exactly is Lance so pissed at AC? If he really didn't expect to win. In some measure because he is Following the Plan. Yes, he followed his plan. But he won mostly because he is flat out the best rider. Dominant climber and tt'er. |
See, we don't really disagree after all. I knew you'd see the light. :D
|
Originally Posted by Hezz
(Post 9351622)
This illustrates the problems that Astana has with Contador. They know that physically he is the strongest rider on the team. But he doesn't quite seem to have the maturity, mental discipline, and personality of a team leader. Not only must the team leader be strong on the bike, but they must have a strong sense of tactics and respect for the other riders. After all, the other riders work their butts off to help the main GC guy so some moves can be harmful to other riders.
For instance the other day when Contador attacked without needing to and dropped his own team mate. This only hurt Astana and didn't really help Contador at all. The thing is that Contador is a really good guy but he has these impulsive tendencies and riding style. The way that he naturally rides he would almost be better off on a team that is not so strong. He could still win on his own without that much help from his teammates. It would be hard for anyone to lead those riders other than LA, LA never accepted the role of 2nd best on the team. |
maybe contador will ride for armstrong in the vuelta to repay lance
for all the hard work he did supporting alberto in july... |
Originally Posted by ooga-booga
(Post 9360884)
maybe contador will ride for armstrong in the vuelta to repay lance
for all the hard work he did supporting alberto in july... Just kidding! |
Originally Posted by OrionKhan
(Post 9343151)
. There was only one reason for JB to tell him not to attack. And that was to keep it close for Lance to get a shot at yellow. This nonsense about not wanting to have the yellow to soon is BS. Astana did most of the race control anyways through out the tour.
|
From a sports blogger:
NOT LANCE ARMSTRONG WINS TOUR DE FRANCE He also wrote this, in his predictions, the day before: "TOMORROW: Contidor over FIELD. Tough nut, Lance. Maybe next year. " |
Interesting quote from Lance in an AP article here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/..._de_france_208
"Contador is that good, so I don't see how I would have been higher than that, even in the other years," said Armstrong, who won the Tour seven consecutive times from 1999 to 2005 before retiring. "I think his performance this year would have beaten my performances in '01 and '04 and '05." Sounds like someone has eaten some humble pie. Reality is finally setting in with Lance. At least he's coming to grips with it. |
LA has said repeatedly that AC was a stronger rider so where's the reality finally setting in?
I agree that the team 'gestalt' and politics were handled horribly this year, but show me one time where anyone said lance was the stronger rider and should be the protected rider (as opposed to team leader). And I still maintain that the break on stage 3 wasn't subterfuge, I think LA just happened to be at the front when the break occurred, nothing more. Marty |
When LA benefited from the Columbia wind-split he had Popovich with him, and insisted "Poppo" take a turn at pulling to increase the gap to the peloton.
Poppo naturally hesitated because they should have been trying to SLOW the break to get their Team back up, but LA's force of character over-ruled Poppo, and pull he did. |
Originally Posted by lotek
(Post 9361986)
And I still maintain that the break on stage 3 wasn't subterfuge, I think LA just happened to
be at the front when the break occurred, nothing more. I did..... and LA and the two other Astana riders were pulling at the front on multiple occasions after the split had formed. It was totally obvious that LA was driving the gap as far as he could get it. That was the moment it became crystal clear what his motives were (as if it was in doubt). |
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