more questions on tactics
07-29-09, 01:59 PM
#26
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So while its a subjective claim, ...
...and we require said analytics, I contend at typical steep tour climbing speeds (ie 14) drafting produces negligible advantages at best
Not if the group rides 10-16mph 
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"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
07-29-09, 02:11 PM
#27
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07-29-09, 02:25 PM
#28
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Ok this is all stupid. I went and did a climb just now and while going about 9-11mph up 8% with a slight headwind I alternately drafted and didn't draft my friend and it was certainly easier when drafting. To argue that a drafting up a climb for a professional in a race is negligable is just ignorant.
Last edited by umd; 07-29-09 at 02:28 PM.
07-29-09, 03:37 PM
#29
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Ok this is all stupid. I went and did a climb just now and while going about 9-11mph up 8% with a slight headwind I alternately drafted and didn't draft my friend and it was certainly easier when drafting. To argue that a drafting up a climb for a professional in a race is negligable is just ignorant.
BTW I've been in the mountians where the headwind on a 6-8% downhill was strong enough that I har to work to stay at 17 MPH. And even staying on my wheel was not easy.
07-29-09, 03:53 PM
#30
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You contend wrong. Especially if there is a headwind on the hill.
...
Ok this is all stupid. I went and did a climb just now and while going about 9-11mph up 8% with a slight headwind
...
Ok this is all stupid. I went and did a climb just now and while going about 9-11mph up 8% with a slight headwind
"...and the former issue on drafting. again, in still conditions..."
07-29-09, 04:51 PM
#31
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Slight headwind, maybe 2-3mph.
Who said anything about still conditions? How often in reality are the conditions perfectly still? On Ventoux, which the OP was asking about, there was most certainly wind.
The bottom line is that for pro climbing speeds drafting matters, at least to some non-negligable degree. Add some wind and it matters more.
Who said anything about still conditions? How often in reality are the conditions perfectly still? On Ventoux, which the OP was asking about, there was most certainly wind.
The bottom line is that for pro climbing speeds drafting matters, at least to some non-negligable degree. Add some wind and it matters more.
Last edited by umd; 07-29-09 at 04:55 PM.
07-29-09, 05:21 PM
#32
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Drafting doesn't magically start having an effect at 20mph, It scales with speed. "greatly affects is going to be subjective but when you are battling for seconds even a few percent is going to be significant. In my experience I can save a good bit of time up a climb drafting in the low teens, so it is not a trivial amount, and even slow club rides still benefit from having someone pulling and sitting on wheels. I would do an analytical calc but I could not find a clear reference for the affect of drafting on cda.
For conversation sake lets say that it helped by 8%, I would say that you are being helped 15% mentally by seeing a wheel in front of you. A greater value.
In layman's terms, it helps more psychologically than physically.
"Oh but Howzit, I have a power meter than PROVES it!"
Im sure you do, and rock also falls at -9.8m/s2. In a vacuum. We dont live in a vacuum.
07-29-09, 05:29 PM
#33
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A yellow jersey also allows a rider to all of a sudden "gain power"
Marco Pantani, finished 3rd in a time trial where "scientifically" he should have lost minutes.
The the OP, cycling is more in your head than the $500 powermeters you see strapped to these fancy bikes.
The Pros of 50 years ago could still kick anybody on these forums with their bread, chicken and wine diet, on their steel frames.
Marco Pantani, finished 3rd in a time trial where "scientifically" he should have lost minutes.
The the OP, cycling is more in your head than the $500 powermeters you see strapped to these fancy bikes.
The Pros of 50 years ago could still kick anybody on these forums with their bread, chicken and wine diet, on their steel frames.
07-29-09, 05:42 PM
#34
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Conversationally speaking, there is no benefit to drafting on a climb higher than 7%. Scientifically is there a benefit? Sure
For conversation sake lets say that it helped by 8%, I would say that you are being helped 15% mentally by seeing a wheel in front of you. A greater value.
In layman's terms, it helps more psychologically than physically.
"Oh but Howzit, I have a power meter than PROVES it!"
Im sure you do, and rock also falls at -9.8m/s2. In a vacuum. We dont live in a vacuum.
For conversation sake lets say that it helped by 8%, I would say that you are being helped 15% mentally by seeing a wheel in front of you. A greater value.
In layman's terms, it helps more psychologically than physically.
"Oh but Howzit, I have a power meter than PROVES it!"
Im sure you do, and rock also falls at -9.8m/s2. In a vacuum. We dont live in a vacuum.
So the question isn't whether it is more beneficial mentally or physically to be paced up a climb, but rather whether it is beneficial physically at all, or to a non "negligable" amount.
07-29-09, 05:47 PM
#36
Senior Member
I would agree that it is a greater psychological benefit than a physical one but it is percetible difference physically, and yes, it is measureable with a power meter. Sure we don't live in a vacuum but a power meter doesn't either, it measures what is actually happening.
So the question isn't whether it is more beneficial mentally or physically to be paced up a climb, but rather whether it is beneficial physically at all, or to a non "negligable" amount.
So the question isn't whether it is more beneficial mentally or physically to be paced up a climb, but rather whether it is beneficial physically at all, or to a non "negligable" amount.
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07-29-09, 05:58 PM
#38
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Meaning, before all this research and powertap and all of that stuff.
Bread, water, wine, cheese and chicken.
Worked for me.
07-29-09, 06:33 PM
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No, the operative word is "pro". A pro from any era could kick my ass because they are the best and I am an amateur hack. Duh.
07-29-09, 06:41 PM
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Holy crap - I'm getting stupider. I get that the word exponential gets kicked around a lot by non-science people. So, I 'bite my tongue (c) LA' a lot on that one. However, if you are going to make an argument based on math:
1. The drag increases with the square of the speed, not the cube.
2. Any exponent relationship in math [y = x^A] is called geometric, whether it is the square or the cube or whatever.
3. An exponential relationship [y = exp (x)] is something else entirely.
1. The drag increases with the square of the speed, not the cube.
2. Any exponent relationship in math [y = x^A] is called geometric, whether it is the square or the cube or whatever.
3. An exponential relationship [y = exp (x)] is something else entirely.
Last edited by yes; 07-29-09 at 06:41 PM. Reason: fix quote
07-29-09, 06:41 PM
#41
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07-29-09, 07:23 PM
#42
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Holy crap - I'm getting stupider. I get that the word exponential gets kicked around a lot by non-science people. So, I 'bite my tongue (c) LA' a lot on that one. However, if you are going to make an argument based on math:
1. The drag increases with the square of the speed, not the cube.
2. Any exponent relationship in math [y = x^A] is called geometric, whether it is the square or the cube or whatever.
3. An exponential relationship [y = exp (x)] is something else entirely.
1. The drag increases with the square of the speed, not the cube.
2. Any exponent relationship in math [y = x^A] is called geometric, whether it is the square or the cube or whatever.
3. An exponential relationship [y = exp (x)] is something else entirely.
07-29-09, 07:27 PM
#43
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thanks all for pitching in. I've learned a few more things today. Aside from the tangible benefits of drafting, mechanical failures, etc. how big is the intangible psychological benefit of someone "pulling" you? Obviously I have never raced and I have no idea how the human body/mind reacts when having teammates in front "pulling."
07-29-09, 10:56 PM
#45
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thanks for the recommendation of "the rider." Looks like a really interesting book, will definitely try to get a copy.
