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It's not Lance hate...simply the truth..

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It's not Lance hate...simply the truth..

Old 08-02-09, 11:35 PM
  #26  
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While i agree that lance is no saint. Not even close, he did play a good teammate on the road, and that is where it matters. There is no doubt that he could have done alot more work when the shlecks and contador attacked in an attempt for second place. Instead he sat up, and rode other people's wheels, making sure the wiggins and others lost time.

"Nope. Merckx is the greatest TDF rider ever. 5 TDF, 3 Green Jerseys, 2 Mountain Jerseys, 4 Combativity awards, 34 stage wins, 111 days in yellow. Oh yeah, in '69 he won all three jerseys. "

Merckx is the greatest rider of all time. But He raced in different times. It's like comparing time trial avg. speeds today and back then. It's a number but there is more to it. The racing culture is very much more specialized. When was the last time a realistic GC contender contested a sprint that wasnt at the top of a mountain. I would consider the greatest TDF rider to be the one that planned the race to be in yellow in paris. Even if that meant being out of yellow to avoid attacks. 7>5
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Old 08-03-09, 01:02 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by enjoi View Post
I would consider the greatest TDF rider to be the one that planned the race to be in yellow in paris.
No. Riding with the radio is not great. Avoiding the yellow is not great. Participating in every break. Sprinting for mountain AND flat points is great. Sweeping all of the jerseys of a contest is great. His 5 tour wins? out of SEVEN attempts. 5 > 7
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Old 08-03-09, 01:10 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by redfooj View Post
No. Riding with the radio is not great. Avoiding the yellow is not great. Participating in every break. Sprinting for mountain AND flat points is great. Sweeping all of the jerseys of a contest is great. His 5 tour wins? out of SEVEN attempts. 5 > 7
And doing all that whilst apparently high as a kite is still great? He got kicked out of the Giro in the same year as his first win. If you think he learned his lesson from that and didn't dope for the Tour, he tested positive three more times over the course of his career.

I'm still convinced that 7is in fact >5. I learned that much in kinder garten.
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Old 08-03-09, 07:03 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by enjoi View Post
Merckx is the greatest rider of all time. But He raced in different times. It's

I knew someone would say this. People forget that Merckx was not racing against a bunch of cub scouts but rather against some extremely talented riders. Era doesn't matter. The fact is he won 500+ races and I contend that we have not seen a similar performance since simply because we've yet to see another rider of Merckx's caliber.
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Old 08-03-09, 07:04 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
And doing all that whilst apparently high as a kite...

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Old 08-03-09, 09:42 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Rippin View Post
My admiration for him stems from beyond the TdF - he won several of the Classics, other Grand Tours and 3 world Championships.

He truely was an animal!
No, Hinault wa an animal (Badger) Merckx was a cannibal.
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Old 08-03-09, 09:48 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
And doing all that whilst apparently high as a kite is still great? He got kicked out of the Giro in the same year as his first win. If you think he learned his lesson from that and didn't dope for the Tour, he tested positive three more times over the course of his career.

I'm still convinced that 7is in fact >5. I learned that much in kinder garten.
Ah yes, the Giro test. A test disputed to this day and one where the penalty was thrown out because of many problems with how the samples were handled.

Sometimes when things are in dispute someone makes a comment that is convincing and trumps pretty much everything else. In the case of Babe Ruth's 'called shot' the catcher in question disputed that it happened saying that if there was any such gesture neither he not the pitcher saw it. If they had there was no way Babe could have put the next pitch out because it would be at his head. In this case Merckx has an equally convincing comment, simply that it was an easy stage, why dope for that one? \

Unlike Armstrong Merckx never claimed he was any different from any other ridres in his era when if came to doping.
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Old 08-03-09, 09:50 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
And doing all that whilst apparently high as a kite is still great? He got kicked out of the Giro in the same year as his first win. If you think he learned his lesson from that and didn't dope for the Tour, he tested positive three more times over the course of his career.

I'm still convinced that 7is in fact >5. I learned that much in kinder garten.
All that shows in longevity. Most wins is not the same as greatest. It is a part, but not everything.
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Old 08-03-09, 10:03 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
No, Hinault wa an animal (Badger) Merckx was a cannibal.
............. Hinault makes Armstrong look like a Saint. (Saint Lance), ...Thank god that could never happen...........it's about as likely as a hitler youth memebr becoming Pope...
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Old 08-03-09, 01:25 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by grinderbob View Post
Defintely not. It is the other way around. Cancer awareness and the Livestrong non-profit organization were convinently used to gain publicity for himself. At least that's how it was perceived. sad.
Bing! Bing! Bing! Bing! Bob, tell him what he's won ....
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Old 08-03-09, 02:06 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by sundaypunch View Post
Who was it that said "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser"....
Originally Posted by gary-nichols View Post
Your quote about good losers has been attributed to the late great Vince Lombardi.
Hmm. I would have bet the farm that such an authoritative quote about losing would have come from a Frenchman.
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Old 08-03-09, 02:20 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by eriksbliss View Post
Hmm. I would have bet the farm that such an authoritative quote about losing would have come from a Frenchman.
Wow. How original.
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Old 08-03-09, 04:14 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by sundaypunch View Post
No kidding. Who was it that said "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser"....
As I recall Michael Phelps finally finished second (lost) a race. Anyone recall hearing any excuses or whining? Anyone want to call him a loser? Of course the swimmer who beat him set a new world record doing it.
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Old 08-03-09, 04:19 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Laggard View Post
Nope. Merckx is the greatest TDF rider ever. 5 TDF, 3 Green Jerseys, 2 Mountain Jerseys, 4 Combativity awards, 34 stage wins, 111 days in yellow. Oh yeah, in '69 he won all three jerseys.
Yu missed a few. He also won the most aggressive rider award (pretty rare for GC winners not named Eddy). His team won the team championship. He won the final stage. His winning margin was over 17 minutes, the best since Fausto Coppi. And he had a huge solo break on stage 17. Over 100 kms If I remember correctly. 6 (top class) riders should be able to pull back 1 right?
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Old 08-03-09, 07:29 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
I'm still convinced that 7is in fact >5. I learned that much in kinder garten.


I excuse the fact you hadnt learned fractions in kindergarten as 5/7 > 7/12
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Old 08-03-09, 08:03 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by redfooj View Post
I excuse the fact you hadnt learned fractions in kindergarten as 5/7 > 7/12
Do ya' really want to go there? I imagine that even after we take Eddy's 500 wins into account, that he started far more races than that and that if we compare his total win ratio to Lance's (who has started realatively few races), Lance will come out with a higher career win ratio. Don't know for sure, but, I'd be willing to bet on it.

By the way, 7 is still great than 5........just sayin'
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Old 08-03-09, 09:46 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by echocola View Post
You know, I took a break from watching cycling after Lance stopped competing. After I heard Lance was coming back I was going to watch again and root for him and I actually thought he was going to win.

I didn't like Contador because I saw him as standing in the way of Lance especially after the Pyrenees when he didn't follow their team's plan. But, after Verbier, it was clear Contador was in a league of his own. I then started to observe Lance's reactions and interviews and it was pretty clear what was going on, he's a sore loser. After I took off the Lance glasses I saw what was really going on. I then came here and started reading threads to see if people shared my view and was pleasantly surprised.

So Lance is awesome because he brought back people like me to watching cycling. All in all, I hope Contador crushes team Radio Shack next year.

This rivalry is great for Cycling!! Look how much press it's generating.

PS, erader, I agree with everything you say. Despite people calling you a Lance hater, etc. You really are just speaking truth. The truth hurts. Thanks.
It's guy love.
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Old 08-04-09, 12:24 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
Do ya' really want to go there? I imagine that even after we take Eddy's 500 wins into account, that he started far more races than that and that if we compare his total win ratio to Lance's (who has started realatively few races), Lance will come out with a higher career win ratio. Don't know for sure, but, I'd be willing to bet on it.

By the way, 7 is still great than 5........just sayin'
You would lose that bet. Eddys win percentage is absurd. Typically win percentage includes each stage of a tour as a seperate race. Eddy was somewhere over 30% of all races. Lance does not match that even for his chosen race.
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Old 08-04-09, 01:00 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
Ah yes, the Giro test. A test disputed to this day and one where the penalty was thrown out because of many problems with how the samples were handled.

Sometimes when things are in dispute someone makes a comment that is convincing and trumps pretty much everything else. In the case of Babe Ruth's 'called shot' the catcher in question disputed that it happened saying that if there was any such gesture neither he not the pitcher saw it. If they had there was no way Babe could have put the next pitch out because it would be at his head. In this case Merckx has an equally convincing comment, simply that it was an easy stage, why dope for that one? \

Unlike Armstrong Merckx never claimed he was any different from any other ridres in his era when if came to doping.
But there was also a positive test after the Giro Di Lombardia in 1973, and Flech Walllone in in 1975, and again in 1977 for pemoline.

Differen period, different rules, different attitudes,m different drugs, but people including Merckx have been doping in cycling for a long time.
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Old 08-07-09, 05:12 PM
  #45  
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I've been a sports fan all of my life and a cycling fan for 30 years. I watched when Connie Carpenter raced alongside Eric Heiden. I watched when Greg Lemond raced the Tour. I remember trying desperately to get updates and results from the latest Red Zinger stage in the days before the Internet and 24 hour cable sports coverage.

But in all that time, I have never seen a cyclist inspire more polarized extremes of love and loathing than Lance Armstrong. I won't mince words... I'm a Lance fan. And I pretty much keep my opinions to myself about him... mainly because I find that it is pointless to attempt to convince any true believer that the other side has any merit at all. But I just have to have a say. I'm not trying to convince anyone that Lance is a saint. I'm not saying that he is even a nice guy. But what I do want to do is to make people THINK before they open their mouths.

Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
I think what gets tiresome for these people you are talking about is that they offer no, nor do they have any rebuttal except for the cancer card, the 7 Tour wins, and personal criticism.

I have yet to see any debate driven rebuttal on any anti-Lance comments.

As the thread topic says, its not Lance hating....simply truth.

Besides, does one suggest we make a camp fire and sing kumbaya?
Howzit... I've seen you and a few other BF'ers really bash anyone who doesn't think that Lance is the embodiment of Satan. You talk about how he was caught doping by absolutely credible innocent saints who were just trying to do the right thing. When I started reading about these cases, it sure seems to me that nearly without fail, the accusers were either disgruntled or had something to gain by Lance's downfall. Heck, in one of the most cited cases (the SCA case) the plaintiff was attempting to withold a contracted payment of 5 million dollars from Lance. Oh... and you guys never disclose that SCA had no case and ended up forced to not only pay Lance the money, but they had to pay for his legal fees too. You only want to point out that he was accused, so he must be guilty.

You defend other riders for their behavior... but bash Lance for doing the same things. These guys are competitors. They want to win. But you seem to think that Hinault, Mercx, and other European riders were pleasant guys who shared bonding moments on the road... sigh... Wrong. They were brutal in their attempts to crush other riders. And their team mates were not exempt from the onslaught come race time. But Lance gets canned for being a selfish American if he has team mates ride to help him. But it's something that European riders have been doing for a long time. The term "domestique" isn't a Navajo word... I'm pretty sure that it wasn't invented in America.

No... I don't think that Lance is perfect. I just wish that some of you could see your own hypocrisy for what it is.

Originally Posted by grinderbob View Post
Defintely not. It is the other way around. Cancer awareness and the Livestrong non-profit organization were convinently used to gain publicity for himself. At least that's how it was perceived. sad.
But this is the post that made me respond. GrinderBob... you show yourself to be a heartless punk who has no idea what it's like to be on the inside of the cancer thrill ride. Sure... attack the racer... attack the person if you don't like him. But saying that he only formed LiveStrong for publicity is a cheap shot.

I've seen the LiveStrong people in action from an up front and personal seat. My wife is fighting cancer right now, and she has shown me what true strength is. And Lance has lived that story too... and I believe that he draws great strength from his knowledge that a bike race (even the TdF) is chump change compared to what he went through. And he tries to do something to help those who race every day in a race that very well may end in death. But your statement is something that would only come from the heart of a pathetic person who has probably never done anything altruistic or meaningful in his life.

My wife needs treatment for her cancer every day for 6 weeks. And the treatments are at a clinic that is too far away for us to travel to every day... so she will have to live near the facility for the duration. Very expensive to find lodging in a big city like that. But you know what? There is an organization that provides free housing for cancer patients that are in her predicament, and they depend solely on donations and endowments to stay afloat. Some of these people have been driven to bankruptcy by months of treatment expenses, but they'll at least have somewhere to stay during the ordeal. When we went this week to tour the facility and make arrangements for my wife to move in, I saw a plaque of sponsors on the wall. Guess who is one of their biggest sponsors? You got it... LiveStrong. They give hundreds of thousands of dollars every year to help people who need help. What have you done Bob? Huh?

Will I wear a yellow Livestrong bracelet? Hell... I'd tattoo my weiner yellow if Lance asked me to.
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Old 08-07-09, 09:22 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Hydrated View Post
... And I pretty much keep my opinions to myself about him... mainly because I find that it is pointless to attempt to convince any true believer that the other side has any merit at all...
Nicely said, and with that, closed.
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