Stage 3, should Mayo have been attacked while down?
#1
Crank Crushing Redneck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: A van down by the river.
Posts: 2,600
Bikes: Bikes are environmentally damaging
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Stage 3, should Mayo have been attacked while down?
OK, so this so called unwritten rule about not attacking a favourite for GC has now been dumped into the trash pile.
Over the years that followed the 2001 crash of JU it has been a topic of discussion about waiting for a GC or the yellow jersey. Yet when Mayo was unfortunately involved in a crash it became ATTACK! time. Every single fan and director sportif knew Mayo had the credentials to be a contender for GC this year. Yet at the first opportunity to take advantage of bad luck the commands are given to put the pedals to the metal and leave his @$$ in the ditch. In other words, "hey! Mayo is down! **** him! Keep on hammering!"
Is this little bit of Tour courtesy/protocol only selectively applied?
It seems to me that if LA is to fall again like last year then it it will be time to leave him in a crumpled pile and attack. Especially if your name is Iban Mayo.
Over the years that followed the 2001 crash of JU it has been a topic of discussion about waiting for a GC or the yellow jersey. Yet when Mayo was unfortunately involved in a crash it became ATTACK! time. Every single fan and director sportif knew Mayo had the credentials to be a contender for GC this year. Yet at the first opportunity to take advantage of bad luck the commands are given to put the pedals to the metal and leave his @$$ in the ditch. In other words, "hey! Mayo is down! **** him! Keep on hammering!"
Is this little bit of Tour courtesy/protocol only selectively applied?
It seems to me that if LA is to fall again like last year then it it will be time to leave him in a crumpled pile and attack. Especially if your name is Iban Mayo.
#2
Geezer Member
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 1,384
Bikes: Airborne, LeMond, Bianchi CX, Volae Century, Redline 925 (fixed) and a Burley Tandem.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
As far as I can remember, the general rule of etiquette is that the peloton does not attack the yellow jersey on a crash. I think Lance extended this courtesy to Jan Ullrich a few years back, as was his prerogative as the current Yellow jersey holder, but it is not a hard fast rule.
#3
Lance Hater
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It's not just about attacking the yellow jersey. It's about attacking any rider, especially one who's got a legitimate podium possibility.
After Lance crashed on 15 last year imagine if Hamilton or Mayo's DS had radioed to them "go go!" Armstrong's down!" Can you imagine the **** that would have come down then?
Here's the outrage:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?...l09tourletters
After Lance crashed on 15 last year imagine if Hamilton or Mayo's DS had radioed to them "go go!" Armstrong's down!" Can you imagine the **** that would have come down then?
Here's the outrage:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?...l09tourletters
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
After a careful review of the films...it has been determined that there were 2 riders up the road at the time Mayo crashed. They would have really liked it if the pack had slowed down and waited since that would have enhanced their chances of finishing 1-2 on the stage. Unfortunately, the pack was not cooperating and chose to chase them, which was doubly unfortunate for Mayo, Mercado, Rodgers, Zubeldia and a few others with high hopes of a high GC placing.
In addition, Mayo crashed before the cobbles. This is where the pace gets quite intense because all the riders are trying to get to the front to avoid crashes. USPS was only doing what any good pro team would do by going to the front and riding hard to try to get onto the cobbles first. Mayo was in fact near the front when the crash happened, but unfortunately, he was on the wrong side of the road. Scott Sunderland, who was on the right side of the road, said in his diary that the pace was ~70km/hr before the first cobbles, where Mayo crashed. He was right there on the opposite side of the road from Mayo. The pace also picked up like this again before the 2nd stretch of cobbles.
Keep in mind that at one point, Mayo's group had closed to within 1'30" of the lead group. After the pace picked up for the 2nd set of cobbles though, they were done.
There was really no breech of protocol here. Just a collision so to speak of different circumstances that combined to make Mayo's crash cataclysmic.
edited to add: Armstrong's crash in 2003 was caused by a fan. I think waiting was an impromptu decision that the riders around him took. When Ullrich rode off the road and armstrong waited, that was driver error, and Armstrong's decision to wait was in my mind completely arbitrary/voluntary, not a matter of protocol.
In addition, Mayo crashed before the cobbles. This is where the pace gets quite intense because all the riders are trying to get to the front to avoid crashes. USPS was only doing what any good pro team would do by going to the front and riding hard to try to get onto the cobbles first. Mayo was in fact near the front when the crash happened, but unfortunately, he was on the wrong side of the road. Scott Sunderland, who was on the right side of the road, said in his diary that the pace was ~70km/hr before the first cobbles, where Mayo crashed. He was right there on the opposite side of the road from Mayo. The pace also picked up like this again before the 2nd stretch of cobbles.
Keep in mind that at one point, Mayo's group had closed to within 1'30" of the lead group. After the pace picked up for the 2nd set of cobbles though, they were done.
There was really no breech of protocol here. Just a collision so to speak of different circumstances that combined to make Mayo's crash cataclysmic.
edited to add: Armstrong's crash in 2003 was caused by a fan. I think waiting was an impromptu decision that the riders around him took. When Ullrich rode off the road and armstrong waited, that was driver error, and Armstrong's decision to wait was in my mind completely arbitrary/voluntary, not a matter of protocol.
Last edited by don d.; 07-10-04 at 05:07 PM.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,296
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I still don't see how "Mayo was attacked". The peloton drove the pace before he crashed, and kept that pace after he crashed. The field split, so of course they want to keep the pressure on, whether or not Mayo was in the rear group.
#10
Lance Hater
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It was reported that as soon as Mayo went down, Postal was told what happened and told to attack.
Don has some good points also. Phil and Paul essentially feel the same way.
Don has some good points also. Phil and Paul essentially feel the same way.
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by Laggard
It was reported that as soon as Mayo went down, Postal was told what happened and told to attack.
Don has some good points also. Phil and Paul essentially feel the same way.
Don has some good points also. Phil and Paul essentially feel the same way.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 539
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think attack may be a relative term when you are flying towards cobbles at 40mph. its not like they had another choice, slow down and they would not be the first onto the cobbles, because no one else was going to wait.
#13
Since Ever Since
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by don d.
And your new avatar is going to be...?
Mayo doesn't exactly have a whole lot of friends in the peloton, it seems. Especially the top guys in the Tour (Lance and Jan). Anyone remember stage 15 last year? Mayo tried to attack after the crash that he and Lance had. And on the very same stage, he and Zubeldia made Jan do all the pacemaking, and Mayo jumped around him for second place (and the time bonus, which would have helped Jan).
What goes around comes around.
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by Devil
Mayo doesn't exactly have a whole lot of friends in the peloton, it seems. Especially the top guys in the Tour (Lance and Jan). Anyone remember stage 15 last year? Mayo tried to attack after the crash that he and Lance had. And on the very same stage, he and Zubeldia made Jan do all the pacemaking, and Mayo jumped around him for second place (and the time bonus, which would have helped Jan).
What goes around comes around.
What goes around comes around.
And here is a photo of Mayo asking Lance, " So Noval's going to put his hand on my bars like this and push me down on Stage 3 of the TDF?" https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...auphine-may-20
Really though, I haven't seen anything more than fan speculation that Mayo is somehow unpopular in the peloton.
#15
Mad Town Biker
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by SamDaBikinMan
Yet when Mayo was unfortunately involved in a crash it became ATTACK! time.
The situation was no different than yesterday when a crash happened at the last kilometer mark and Lance went down. Do you hear anyone complaining about the race not stopping!?!? Granted, no one lost time, but do you honestly think anyone would stop racing if the crash had happened 500 meters earlier and the time lost counted on GC?
Everyone was going all out to be first to the cobbles, it just happened that USPS was on the front because they executed their game plan perfectly. After they got through the cobbles, Ecky and George inspired riding created a gap on at least two GC riders (Levi & Haras). I'm sure your strategy at that point would be to hold up and throw away a great opportunity!
Originally Posted by Laggard
Seriously though, reverse the situation. Lance on the ground and Mayo attacking. Imagine the uproar.
Second, Lance has a much stronger team than Mayo and I have no doubt USPS would have bridged the gap. Did you notice that all but a couple EE riders gave up the chase in the end? That's the team I want around me when ***** happens
Talk about 99ers, these comments make me think people here haven't watched more than a couple bike races
-murray
#16
Since Ever Since
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by don d.
I really think this is somewhat overblown. Unless you're Robbie McEwen, these guys just don't keep track of stuff like that. Here is a photo of Lance telling Mayo what direction he should point his bike when they get to the cobbles: https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...auphine-may-21
And here is a photo of Mayo asking Lance, " So Noval's going to put his hand on my bars like this and push me down on Stage 3 of the TDF?" https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...auphine-may-20
Really though, I haven't seen anything more than fan speculation that Mayo is somehow unpopular in the peloton.
And here is a photo of Mayo asking Lance, " So Noval's going to put his hand on my bars like this and push me down on Stage 3 of the TDF?" https://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...auphine-may-20
Really though, I haven't seen anything more than fan speculation that Mayo is somehow unpopular in the peloton.
And it's too bad not everybody can be McEwen, because what's a good bike race without threats/actions of violence?
#17
Lance Hater
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by don d.
And your new avatar is going to be...?
I'm feeling more secure now.
#18
Ready to go anywhere
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: .se
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Grampy™
the peloton does not attack the yellow jersey on a crash.
/Csson
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 421
Bikes: Cervelo P2K, Cannondale R1000
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Laggard
It's not just about attacking the yellow jersey. It's about attacking any rider, especially one who's got a legitimate podium possibility.
After Lance crashed on 15 last year imagine if Hamilton or Mayo's DS had radioed to them "go go!" Armstrong's down!" Can you imagine the **** that would have come down then?
Here's the outrage:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?...l09tourletters
After Lance crashed on 15 last year imagine if Hamilton or Mayo's DS had radioed to them "go go!" Armstrong's down!" Can you imagine the **** that would have come down then?
Here's the outrage:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/tour.php?...l09tourletters
"I could hear Bruyneel yelling in their earpiece, "Mayo's behind the split! Go! Go! Go!" "
How could he hear this all the way from Utah. It may have happened, but he must have better television reception than I do.
"The Tour should be decided in the mountains and in the time trials"
It usually is decided in the moutains and time trials, but to say it should be is ridiculous. Why do you think the main GC contenders are always near the front? You never know when something can happen to split the peloton (crash, wind). This happened today with the wind and who was up there trying to widen the gap?
I think this whole "controversy" is a fan issue. Those who think USPS, T-Mobile and Phonak were correct are probably their fans and those who aren't their fans think they did the wrong thing.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: in Payne, NC
Posts: 176
Bikes: Mongrel
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Mayo lost time because his team was not strong enough to pull him back, right? Why is that everyone else's fault?
#21
Since Ever Since
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,575
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I'm beginning to think that riders should not be allowed to attack anyone who is having difficulty - even in the mountains.
It just isn't fair.
It just isn't fair.
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Originally Posted by Laggard
After seeing Devil's, I had avatar envy.
I'm feeling more secure now.
I'm feeling more secure now.
Got to ebay and search on castelli in the stores:
#24
Crank Crushing Redneck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: A van down by the river.
Posts: 2,600
Bikes: Bikes are environmentally damaging
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Murrays
Everyone was going all out to be first to the cobbles, it just happened that USPS was on the front because they executed their game plan perfectly. After they got through the cobbles, Ecky and George inspired riding created a gap on at least two GC riders (Levi & Haras). I'm sure your strategy at that point would be to hold up and throw away a great opportunity!
First, Lance wouldn't have been forced to ride alone to catch up for some distance as Mayo was.
Second, Lance has a much stronger team than Mayo and I have no doubt USPS would have bridged the gap. Did you notice that all but a couple EE riders gave up the chase in the end? That's the team I want around me when ***** happens
Notwithstanding any assumptions these points are pretty much what it seems to boil down to.
It does seem odd that DS of postal was said/claimed to be giving orders to push harder based on the crash which is what made it questionable in my opinion. In any event it is still a fact that there is an unwritten courtesy that does seem to be extended among only a few in the peloton.
Now it would certainly not be wise to throw out an advantage if it is come by legitimately.
#25
Junior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Some more thoughts on the hypothetical "If Lance had fallen instead of Mayo...", which has gotten a lot of spanish press in recent days. The effort on the front would have far less enthusiastic with Postal storming from the rear, not necessarily because Lance is the "Grand Patron" of the race. Rather, because the folks up front would know they were working against a killer TT squad, and the work and organization to hold a gap would be enormous.
Cycling is a team sport, in the end, and Mayo places himself at GC risk in the early stages by hanging out with a bunch of climber/opportunists from a small region of spain. They're slow to help each other, and not particularly good at the either.
This begs the question - Mayo will get offers from top teams for the new season, and how will his allegiance to Euskatel remain after this year, knowing that he might have done much better with a stronger squad?
Cycling is a team sport, in the end, and Mayo places himself at GC risk in the early stages by hanging out with a bunch of climber/opportunists from a small region of spain. They're slow to help each other, and not particularly good at the either.
This begs the question - Mayo will get offers from top teams for the new season, and how will his allegiance to Euskatel remain after this year, knowing that he might have done much better with a stronger squad?