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LeMond criticizes Armstrong?

Old 07-15-04, 02:29 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by 2Rodies
2001 was when Greg made his first, and since retracted, coments about Lance and Dr. Michele Ferrari.

Thanks for the link but I don't speak much French past Renault, Peugot and Merlot! There isn't an english version floating about is there?
That may be true about the retracted comments, but he brings them up again in the interview. I don't think Le Monde has an English version. I may translate it later tonight if someone else hasn't already. There must be a translation floating around somewhere as they already had the two quotes translated. There are some interesting parts about Ferari ruining cycling and saying that even if Lance wins this year he doesn't compare to past champions, such as Hinault (and presumably himself).
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Old 07-15-04, 02:37 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by hollow
That may be true about the retracted comments, but he brings them up again in the interview.
Is it possible that LeMond (the cyclist) didn't bring it up again, but Le Monde (the paper) brought it up again In other words, they are just recycling LeMond's past comments to sell papers?

-murray
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Old 07-15-04, 02:56 PM
  #53  
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It was Jacque Anquetil, the first 5 times winner of the TdF who said that only an imbecile can think that somebody can sustain that much torture and put up that much effort as the TdF requires without doping. He just admitted strait up that he was using the stuff and he paid dearly for that. Died when he was 62 or something like that already.

Armstrong himself in the “Every Second Counts” in essence almost repeats the Anquetil’s statement talking about IV’s, special vitamin cocktails, altitude tents etc. Yes, he says that all this what they use is perfectly legal and does not affect health, but it is totally clear that all this methods and/or substances are there to do only one thing: enhance athlete’s performance.

Now, I wonder:

Does an athlete know if everything what is being administered to them and to their mates is or is not legal? The emphasis is on everything and on know. When he or she is there with the drip in his or her arm and the good doctor is mixing the cocktail…
Further, does anyone really know how are the performance enhancing supplements that are (still) legal and being used affecting overall health? How often we read about the newest and hottest findings of the medical research…?

I too am not sure where to draw the line. Is eating good healthy food performance enhancing? I hope so. Is that also dangerous or unethical? I hope not. Can this be said for everything what enhances performance and still is legal? I don’t think so.

One other thing: Some riders are adamant that absolutely nothing (illegal) can be found in their urine and/or blood samples. Well, knowing something about the testing methodology myself I can say that only way to be 100% sure that really nothing can be found in your body is if you submit samples taken from somebody else. I know that this sounds paranoid, but it is so and it is being done on more than one large sport event.
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Old 07-15-04, 03:14 PM
  #54  
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He is just trying to get his bikes to sell over in Europe. It's extremly poor taste and he should realize that by putting his foot in his mouth like this is going to hurt his reputation and business. Sad that his life has to come to this, I used to have some respect for the guy.
Wait a minute...Doesn't Trek own LeMond bikes now.....hhmmmm..that's a good business relationship
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Old 07-15-04, 03:57 PM
  #55  
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I am sitting here thinking to myself whether or not I would dope if I were in these guys' position. I remember the "Just Say No" campaign of the 80's, and for me, that worked along with a pair of great parents who talked to me about that stuff. The only drug I've tried (and abused in college) has been alcohol. I like being au natural and have a pretty healthy fear of putting anything in my body that doesn't come from a farm of some sort (or vending machine). At first, I can't imagine doping.

Still, I'm on the wrong side of young (I'm 31) and when I go play 18 holes with the potential of getting in 36, it is a lead-pipe cinch that I'm going to pop some ibuprofen throughout the day. No, it isn't the same as shooting EPO and climbing Ventoux. But how many of us take something to ease the pain, add muscle, raise our metabolism, or regulate some other bodily function? When you consider it long enough, it just doesn't seem so shocking that those fellas in the pelaton have to be taking something extra.
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Old 07-15-04, 04:10 PM
  #56  
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I am sitting here thinking to myself whether or not I would dope if I were in these guys' position.



Well I was very very sick when I was in my early 30's. I spent 13 weeks in Cedar Sini in Los Angeles and it was touch and go for awhile. I did lot's of drugs in my youth (I'm 42 and the 70's and 80's were rather wild for me) but since my illness I don't even drink much.

Now Lance should have died, the fact that he didn't is really just short of a miracle. I hope that after all that he has more respect for his body than to put something in it that could possibly make him ill again. I have allways had a suspision that his original cancer was caused by steroid use. His actions and his body type were condusive of steriod use. He had an awful temper and was pretty buff. I've read his books and I can accept his explenation that the cancer and rehab reshaped his body and his mind into what he is today, but I still have a few lingering doubts.

He has three children and by all accounts is a devoted father. I know that I want to be around for my girls for as long as possible, one would think that he would too. Putting a substance into his body that might get him a few more watts but shorten his time on this planet seems to go against what this man is about. Untill some one comes out with hard proof I'm still going to believe him, accusations and inuendo just don't cut it!
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Old 07-15-04, 04:17 PM
  #57  
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very well put sir.
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Old 07-15-04, 04:28 PM
  #58  
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And I thought Greg LeMond was cool. What a fool I was. I could'nt belive what I was reading:

Asked about Armstrong's comeback after he recovered from cancer, LeMond answered: "There are no miracles in cycling, only explanations."

What kind of swine says that? I mean, the guy's a strait up prick. Somebody should cut off his thumbs or something.
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Old 07-15-04, 05:18 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by geist
And I thought Greg LeMond was cool. What a fool I was. I could'nt belive what I was reading:

Asked about Armstrong's comeback after he recovered from cancer, LeMond answered: "There are no miracles in cycling, only explanations."

What kind of swine says that? I mean, the guy's a strait up prick. Somebody should cut off his thumbs or something.

G'day Geist,

I must admit I haven't read the transcript of what Lemond actually said, but whats been reported in the media here....doesn't show anything new or exciting, or in fact anything to justify your previous outburst. Did Lemond accuse lance of doing drugs...No.....Did lemond say that Lance had tested positive to anything illegal, (even though he has!), no...All Lemond did was answer questions....He's right, just because Lance hasn't tested positive to anything bad enough to get him rubbed out...doesn't mean he ain't doing it....(doesn't mean he is, either).....In lance's case, It is difficult to prove a negative...How does one prove that you didn't do something?...nearly impossible. Did millar test positive?...No....How many tests did Pantani pass?.....lets face it, passing a test means you have passed a test designed to find whatever it is that's being tested for......Lemond hasn't brought anything new to the arguement, Much like 'LA confidential', I can appreciate that you & every other Lanceophile may not like his opinion, that your perogative...doesn't make him wrong... certainly Lemond has done enough for cycling (particularly in the US) & has a reputation that doesn't deserve your petty outburst. Just remember, "opinions are like arseholes......everyones got one",

cheers,

Hitchy
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Old 07-15-04, 05:24 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Hitchy
G'day Geist,

I can appreciate that you & every other Lanceophile may not like his opinion, that your perogative...doesn't make him wrong... certainly Lemond has done enough for cycling (particularly in the US) & has a reputation that doesn't deserve your petty outburst.

cheers,

Hitchy
Armstrong fan or not, it isn't hard to be annoyed by this comment by Lemond:

Originally Posted by geist
Asked about Armstrong's comeback after he recovered from cancer, LeMond answered: "There are no miracles in cycling, only explanations."
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Old 07-15-04, 05:42 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by 2Rodies
2001 was when Greg made his first, and since retracted, coments about Lance and Dr. Michele Ferrari.

Thanks for the link but I don't speak much French past Renault, Peugot and Merlot! There isn't an english version floating about is there?


"Lance Armstrong would do anything to keep his secret"

LE MONDE | 15.07.04 | 13h29



Triple Tour de France winner (1986, 1989, and 1990), Greg Lemond is the first American to win the Tour. He lives in Minneapolis. Since the release of L.A. Confidential in which he is quoted, Greg claims being pressured. His bike company, Lemond Bikes, is distributed by Trek one of the main sponsors of the US Postal team.

Q: Your spouse, Kathy, tells in L.A. Confidential that Lance Armstrong called you in July 2001 to accuse you of having used EPO during your carreer.

A: His phone call had been a chock because he was violent and very menacing. Lance said that I couldn't have won the Tour without EPO. This is absolutely false because EPO didn't exist at the time. A week earlier I had been interviewed by the Sunday Times in which I proclaimed my opinion regarding Michele Ferrari (the Italian physician preparing Lance since 1997). Lance thought I wanted to destroy him when I simply wanted to warn him about staying with a guy such as Ferrari. Because I was convinced that such a relation was a catastrophe. At this time in Italy, Ferrari was already being investigated for fraud since September 2001


Q: What do you accuse Michele Ferrari of?

A: I met him in 1994 in a bike shop in San Diego. I was getting information about a device allowing power input control and performances monitoring. He asked me what it was and what it was used for. He had no training or conditioning knowledge. His thing was the Science of the Hemoglobin. For me he is the one who transformed cycling.


Q: How this change happened?

A: In 1990 I won my 3rd Tour and our team, Z, the team classification. A year later none of us could follow the peloton rhytm. There had been a radical change. Some riders who had never won anything suddenly were beating everybody. In 1991 I was better prepared than before: I outraced Indurain in the Prologue by several seconds. But after two weeks of racing the speed was so high than neither me nor my teammates could follow. In our team everyone knew something was wrong with EPO and other substances.


Q: What is your opinion today about cycling and the Tour?

A: I am glad to be out of this sport because today one doesn't have many choices. I am disapointed to see how few questions people ask. With all the recent stories I am less excited by the Tour: I am sceptic. There has always been a problem with doping in our sport but, since ten years, the products are so effective they can physiologicaly change an athlete. One can transform a mule into a stallion!


Q: You do not believe in Lance's miraculous come back from cancer?

A: There's no miracle in cycling. There's always an explanation. First is the original talent. Hinault and Merckx won the Tour on their first attempt. I finished 3rd on my first in 1984, and second in 1985. My physiology has not changed. After my hunting accident in 1987, it took me two years to come back but I never reached the same level.
The only way to go faster in cycling is by raising one's oxygen capacity. When I was racing my VO2 Max was the best in the peloton (93ml). Today I wouldn't be in the top fifty! I studied physiology a lot and I can guarantee you that no training regimen can transform somebody with a weak VO2 into a champion. And training methods have not changed by much.


Q: And if Lance Armstrong become the first six Tours winner?

A: People will say I am jealous because I was the first American to win it, but even with six wins it cannot compare to the past. Because of all that happened in the last ten years, it doesn't have the same value as Hinault's five wins, for instance.
Lance says that I am the only former winner not to support him. I was a great supporter the first year he won. But with those stories it's difficult to be one any longer.


Q: Lance Armstrong responds to his doubters that he has never tested positive.

A: Everyone says that. But David Millar has never tested positive either. Yet he has acknowledged using EPO. Every year new doubts are added as Police discovers things in Italy and France, and as racers, such as Jesus Manzano, tell the truth; that they used drugs. The problem with Lance is that you cannot talk with him.
For him you are either a liar like Christophe Bassons or Jesus Manzano, or you are trying to destroy cycling. I simply say that I want to hear the truth when I am watching the Tour de France. Lance is ready to do anything to protect his secret. But I do not know how he will be able to convince everyone of his innocence.


et voilà...
"Lance Armstrong would do anything to keep his secret"

LE MONDE | 15.07.04 | 13h29
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Old 07-15-04, 06:20 PM
  #62  
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g'day,

thanks for the transcript.....again, nothing new in here...lemond doesn't make any unreasonable points or claims....if any criticism is due, perhaps to the magazine editor who has pulled out one line of a conversation to make a sensational headline!......

cheers,

Hitchy
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Old 07-15-04, 06:32 PM
  #63  
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"Hinault and Merckx won the Tour on their first attempt. I finished 3rd on my first in 1984, and second in 1985. My physiology has not changed. After my hunting accident in 1987, it took me two years to come back but I never reached the same level."

So... Lance couldn't possibly have continued to build on his world championship form to increase his ability as he approached the prime age for a cyclist if Lemond couldn't recover from a hunting accident I guess.

" In 1990 I won my 3rd Tour and our team, Z, the team classification. A year later none of us could follow the peloton rhytm. There had been a radical change. Some riders who had never won anything suddenly were beating everybody. In 1991 I was better prepared than before: I outraced Indurain in the Prologue by several seconds. But after two weeks of racing the speed was so high than neither me nor my teammates could follow. In our team everyone knew something was wrong with EPO and other substances."

So is he accusing Indurain as well? Sounds like it to me.
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Old 07-15-04, 06:58 PM
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It depends on how you read the statement. I didn't get that he was accusing Indurain at all. But I did get the reading that he felt that a lot of riders in the peloton were doping, and that as the weeks wore on, it was apparent that the EPO was working for those riders that used it, since they didn't tire as much as the people who didn't use the EPO.

LeMond's statements, although negative towards the end, still do not look as bad as when the statements were taken out of context and quoted in news reports. Thank you for the translation, but it looks as though this one interview is being regurgitated over and over again and taken out of context to suite the article being written.

We'll see- tests are being developed ALL THE TIME to detect other new substances. That's how all these track stars are suddenly being disqualified and banned from racing. If he's using, they'll find it.

My sister had cancer just as bad as Lance (22 when diagnosed), and she went through surgery to remove a tumor the size of a melon out of her chest, then she went through many weeks of chemotherapy, and that followed by many more weeks of radiation. Today, she is cancer free and healthy. She has no need to take special drugs or anything to maintain her health, so I'd think that if he were cancer free also, there shouldn't be anything in his system other than vitamins and the legal supplements allowed. He's said himself that he only has vitamins and supplements that are allowed, and if there's anything else there, they'll find it. If not, he'll be vindicated.

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Old 07-15-04, 07:41 PM
  #65  
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Life is all smoke and mirrors. I think Lemond is wasting his time with this one, as I'm not sure history will vindicate him even if lance is busted. Afterall, the rule is 'deny everything', and if you get busted, employ a publisist, admit you were wrong, and be 'saved'.

Another thing. I keep hearing "Lance - the most tested man in history" banted around. If there any basis around this 'fact'? What's the mandate for testing one rider more than any other? Is this just a misquote, or does it include the tests based around his Cancer treatment? If so....that's kinda humourous.
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Old 07-15-04, 07:42 PM
  #66  
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Greg Lemond survied a serious gunshot accident. We all know how serious the drugs were he had to take to recover. Unless someone can come foward with concrete proof Lance does drugs, no one can say he does. The testing regimeme is strict. You can't even get away with taking antihistmines in large doses.
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Old 07-15-04, 08:14 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Hitchy
G'day Geist,

I must admit I haven't read the transcript of what Lemond actually said, but whats been reported in the media here....doesn't show anything new or exciting, or in fact anything to justify your previous outburst. Did Lemond accuse lance of doing drugs...No.....Did lemond say that Lance had tested positive to anything illegal, (even though he has!), no...All Lemond did was answer questions....He's right, just because Lance hasn't tested positive to anything bad enough to get him rubbed out...doesn't mean he ain't doing it....(doesn't mean he is, either).....In lance's case, It is difficult to prove a negative...How does one prove that you didn't do something?...nearly impossible. Did millar test positive?...No....How many tests did Pantani pass?.....lets face it, passing a test means you have passed a test designed to find whatever it is that's being tested for......Lemond hasn't brought anything new to the arguement, Much like 'LA confidential', I can appreciate that you & every other Lanceophile may not like his opinion, that your perogative...doesn't make him wrong... certainly Lemond has done enough for cycling (particularly in the US) & has a reputation that doesn't deserve your petty outburst. Just remember, "opinions are like arseholes......everyones got one",

cheers,

Hitchy

Whoa you'd better be more specific before you just blurt out that Lance has tested positive. That positive was for a topical ointment that was known to the Tour organizers. Pantanni did test positive for cocain and was booted from the Giro. From what many who have read LA Confidential have said is that it is full of half truths and inuendo. As for Greg Le Monds statments from 2001 he has apologized in public and took back what he said.
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Old 07-15-04, 08:35 PM
  #68  
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armstrong cant't be doping. like all cyclists, he's tested to within an inch of his life, and he's never, ever tested positive.

come to think of it, neither has david millar...

awww... nevermind...
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Old 07-15-04, 09:15 PM
  #69  
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What kind of swine says that? I mean, the guy's a strait up prick. Somebody should cut off his thumbs or something
Or shoot him in a hunting "accident"
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Old 07-15-04, 09:20 PM
  #70  
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One reason Lance may skirt the question about whether he has *ever* taken illegal drugs or not is that he has, and has admitted it! If I remember correctly, he said he was given EPO during his cancer treatment. A perfectly reasonable course. The only problem is that if he admitted it now, all the press would report would be "Yes, I took EPO" and the "while I was being treated for cancer" would be conveiniently ignored (if it was even heard). Maybe hat's why answer to that question always seems to hedge a bit. I dunno.

Personally, LeMond needs to sit down and shut up. I was a fan of his until today. When someone says "People will think I'm just jealous" it usually means they are. Heck, he can't even keep an official website going... Moron.
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Old 07-15-04, 09:21 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Koffee Brown
It depends on how you read the statement. I didn't get that he was accusing Indurain at all.

Koffee
He said that he came to the '91 Tour in his best ever form, and that many riders were suddenly far better than him (and since Indurain was the best, obviously it IS referring to him, and everyone else that was better than Lemond.) He says it like the whole peloton suddenly started using EPO in 1991.

Originally Posted by 2Rodies
Whoa you'd better be more specific before you just blurt out that Lance has tested positive. That positive was for a topical ointment that was known to the Tour organizers. Pantanni did test positive for cocain and was booted from the Giro.
Pantani never tested positive for anything.
You might be thinking of when Simoni tested 'positive' for cocaine in a race before the Giro, which ended up forcing him to leave the Giro.

In my opinion, statements like "When I was racing my VO2 Max was the best in the peloton (93ml). Today I wouldn't be in the top fifty!" make him just seem like a bitter old fool.
Was he trying to imply that Armstrong didn't have the natural talent before his cancer? If Lemond is going to go by VO2max as an indicator... I believe Armstrong was tested and found to have a VO2Max of 88 in his early 20s.

Last edited by brent_dube; 07-15-04 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 07-15-04, 09:26 PM
  #72  
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Idiot Savant.

A person who is basically mentally ********, but also has mental abilities akin to genius. For example, a ******** person who can hear a musical piece and play it on the piano exactly the first time, without training. I'm talking about complicated classical music.

Isn't it possible that some people might be gifted like that without also being ********?
Like maybe, Lance?
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Old 07-15-04, 09:28 PM
  #73  
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I feel your interpretation... I just didn't quite see it that way in my interpretation, that's all. It's all good, though.

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Old 07-15-04, 09:53 PM
  #74  
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I think this is LeMond's way of confession "I couldn't have won the tours without dope, so Lance must be using dopes." all from circumstantial evidence without any hard evidence. I'm very disappointed by this man. I was very excited when he won the tour as a first American, then the second and third, even after he got injured from gun shot. Why couldn't he just wait till the authority finds out the evidence, if any. He won't make a good juror.
I read some of the posts stating that the rider may not using illegal drugs but they use all kinds stuff to enhance their performance, of cource they do. Whats wrong with that? Shouldn't Gatorade be used? Coca-Cola should be illegal? I heard some riders drink it to get the last 30 miles going for its caffeine and sugar. I don't think it's even un-ethical.

I believe when the authorities, be it the police Dpt. or the tour organizer, catch the evidence. Until then, all the suspicions are meaningless to me.
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Old 07-15-04, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by geist
Asked about Armstrong's comeback after he recovered from cancer, LeMond answered: "There are no miracles in cycling, only explanations."
It seems to me only explanation LeMond would accept is Lance saying, "Yes, I did use illegal drugs to win." Lance has been saying "Waht I'm on? I'm sitting on the saddle 6 hours a day, working my @ss off." Lemond doesn't seem like that answer.
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