My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news
#1351
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#1352
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All the people that you listed above are still alive, none of them are pushing daisies.
They all had a chance to fight LA in court, yet they chose not to.
Whether he bribed the UCI is just that, speculation.
Do any of the holier-than-thou posters here have a perfect record?
Posters here remind me of a bunch of vultures feasting on the corpse of the man who, for millions of riders and cancer victims, was the inspiration to get off the couch and start doing something positive.
They all had a chance to fight LA in court, yet they chose not to.
Whether he bribed the UCI is just that, speculation.
Do any of the holier-than-thou posters here have a perfect record?
Posters here remind me of a bunch of vultures feasting on the corpse of the man who, for millions of riders and cancer victims, was the inspiration to get off the couch and start doing something positive.
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#1353
out walking the earth
I understand it but you're leaving out a critical point. Yes oj had a good life. Because he kept done money. Lance will as well. He's worth like a 150 million. But neither of them will be liked. Trusted. Armstrong will end up a meme. Forever associated with doping and cheating. He will not command respect or attention in the manner he did. He will not command the attention if presidents. Guys like that aren't about the good life meaning having enough cash to do what they want they crave power.
Maybe you really didn't understand my OJ comparison. What I'm saying is that after being branded a murderer and having a multi-million dollar civil judgement against him he was still living well. He threw that away by making more mistakes, but Armstrong won't be that foolish.
Lance is arrogant and less than truthful. And yet even on this forums there are people defending him. "Level playing field", "Cycling has a history of doping", "Look at all the people he helped" and all that. That will never completely stop. Even if it was reduced to 1% of the public (and it won't) that's still a crap load of people.
He isn't naming names right now because his current goal is to have his ban reduced and offending those in power won't help there. He'll save that for later. And when he does decide it's time, people will get in line to hear from him again.
I'm sure Lances bar is set higher than having sex with groupies, too. But those things are still there for him. Maybe it will never get as high, but his ball is still bouncing.
Lance is arrogant and less than truthful. And yet even on this forums there are people defending him. "Level playing field", "Cycling has a history of doping", "Look at all the people he helped" and all that. That will never completely stop. Even if it was reduced to 1% of the public (and it won't) that's still a crap load of people.
He isn't naming names right now because his current goal is to have his ban reduced and offending those in power won't help there. He'll save that for later. And when he does decide it's time, people will get in line to hear from him again.
I'm sure Lances bar is set higher than having sex with groupies, too. But those things are still there for him. Maybe it will never get as high, but his ball is still bouncing.
#1354
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Note: Merckx keeps very quiet about the whole period after his time... best approach.
not sure why Lemond needs to be charging everyhting like Don Quixote... some people are just like that...
its not serving him well.
#1356
Señor Blues
LA didn't do this interview to come clean or set the record straight. He did the interview only in his self interest.
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Except that Lemond was one of the few Tour Champions who advocated increasing doping controls while he was competing and winning. If anything, Lemond's inelegant elocution is just more proof that he could not have pulled off the lie as well as Armstrong, (or Merckx for that matter.) If Lemond had only kept his mouth shut, perhaps none of the others would have been inspired to speak out, so of course the Yellow Bracelet Brigade still hate his guts.
#1358
Senior Member
I understand it but you're leaving out a critical point. Yes oj had a good life. Because he kept done money. Lance will as well. He's worth like a 150 million. But neither of them will be liked. Trusted. Armstrong will end up a meme. Forever associated with doping and cheating. He will not command respect or attention in the manner he did. He will not command the attention if presidents. Guys like that aren't about the good life meaning having enough cash to do what they want they crave power.
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You may want to take your own advice, considering Greg's track record with the truth so far.
Also, I always find it so odd when folks criticise him for being a 'has been'. Is that better or worse than your record of 'never was'?
Your post is a litany of your own ignorance. Why not ask, instead of of proving yourself a fool?
#1361
Professional Fuss-Budget
Lemond isn't the tool here.
You're taking Lemond's quote out of context.
Lance said "no one can win the Tour without doping." This basically accuses every successful pro cyclist of juicing.
Yeah, I'd agree that isn't a correct assessment. Armstrong didn't have privileged access to any drugs. Still, he's right that Armstrong was nowhere near as exceptional as he proclaimed, with all that "zomg superior VO2Max" BS.
Yes. It was approved by the UCI before the race.
By the way, Lemond and Fignon were never more than 1 minute apart during the entire race. Lemond took a risk to use aero bars, and it worked out.
Yeah, that's actually what he did for many years:
"I couldn’t go near the Tour de France for fear I would be asked about Armstrong and doping. What could I say – ‘no comment’? I couldn’t sell my soul and switch topics to talk about my 1986 Tour."
Lemond may be wrong on a few of the finer points, but at the core he's right. Armstrong was a doper, a bully, and a litigious bastard who had no qualms about ruining the lives of anyone who dared to tell the truth -- and has yet to express any remorse for his actions.
You're taking Lemond's quote out of context.
Lance said "no one can win the Tour without doping." This basically accuses every successful pro cyclist of juicing.
Originally Posted by eja
LeMond believes that Armstrong’s natural talent was ‘average’ and that he couldn’t have won the Tour De France clean because he wasn’t the super-talented athlete he made himself out to be.
Originally Posted by eja
was the aero bar that Greg used to beat Fignon legal?
By the way, Lemond and Fignon were never more than 1 minute apart during the entire race. Lemond took a risk to use aero bars, and it worked out.
Originally Posted by eja
Greg will serve his cause better if he remains the elder, and circumspect, bike statesman rather than just a guy who can't keep his mouth shut.
"I couldn’t go near the Tour de France for fear I would be asked about Armstrong and doping. What could I say – ‘no comment’? I couldn’t sell my soul and switch topics to talk about my 1986 Tour."
Lemond may be wrong on a few of the finer points, but at the core he's right. Armstrong was a doper, a bully, and a litigious bastard who had no qualms about ruining the lives of anyone who dared to tell the truth -- and has yet to express any remorse for his actions.
#1362
Professional Fuss-Budget
He repeatedly wrecked careers and sued people in order to cover up his lies.
He built a cancer charity which, while fairly well run: Funds almost no cancer research, doesn't provide a lot of services, and mostly exists to burnish Armstrong's ego.
He used sponsorship money from the USPS to pay for his team's doping regime. Pretty close.
Not me. And not the people who are riding more and more over the past few years. And almost all of the people who were motivated by Armstrong believed a well-orchestrated lie.
Average or mediocre?
And no, I don't care how much he boosted Trek's sales.
How much of his motivation to start his charity was to pad his image, which in turn lined his pocketbook?
Has he resigned the board of Livestrong yet?
Did he decide that livestrong.org would be for the non-profit, and livestrong.com would be a commercial entity that was allowed to use the Livestrong brand identity?
We're not all consequentialists, by the way. Motives count when passing judgment.
Because he's a lying, manipulative, vindictive, cruel, selfish man who ruined at least a dozen careers to protect his lies, received enormous material rewards explicitly because of his unethical behavior, and tarnished the sport of cycling for years to come.
Oh yeah, he's also perjured himself on multiple occasions.
And he was about as remorseful as a leech in the Big Interview.
For starters, I'm not a lying manipulative vindictive cruel selfish bastard who got rich off of a pack of lies.
Originally Posted by eja
Did LA steal money from orphans, widows and retired people?
Originally Posted by eja
Did LA take money from your pocket?
Originally Posted by eja
Did LA motivate people to get off their fat asses and get on a bike to ride
Originally Posted by eja
Did LA make an average bike company fabulously rich?
And no, I don't care how much he boosted Trek's sales.
Originally Posted by eja
Did LA give hope and inspiration to million of cancer victims, cancer survivors and their families?
Has he resigned the board of Livestrong yet?
Did he decide that livestrong.org would be for the non-profit, and livestrong.com would be a commercial entity that was allowed to use the Livestrong brand identity?
We're not all consequentialists, by the way. Motives count when passing judgment.
Originally Posted by eja
Why the public opprobrium?
Oh yeah, he's also perjured himself on multiple occasions.
And he was about as remorseful as a leech in the Big Interview.
Originally Posted by eja
Why do you see the speck in your brother'seyebut fail to notice the beam that is in your own eye?
Originally Posted by eja
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
#1363
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The thing that struck me about the Oprah/Armstrong interview was how "brutish" Lance was with some of his words. I always thought of him as a kind of sophisticated guy, and to think with the money/resources he has, he could not find really great PR people to prepare him for that crucial interview.
The picture painted was that of a very narcissistic guy, who is almost a borderline sociopath. Kinda sad, in that the doping could probably be forgiven, but where he really crossed the line was with the viciousness/meaness he went after opponents, whom he knew were being truthful.
The picture painted was that of a very narcissistic guy, who is almost a borderline sociopath. Kinda sad, in that the doping could probably be forgiven, but where he really crossed the line was with the viciousness/meaness he went after opponents, whom he knew were being truthful.
#1364
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It's a joke. Internet banter. A stock bulletin board line. 'Calm down.' I've posted that perhaps several hundred times here. It's actually a carry over from another board I was on.
So no, there is no tactic. I meant it the way I said I meant it. And others got that as well. That you want to make debating the nuance of my post a hobby is your issue. I don't care. I watched Lance come up as a junior, and know what I and others thought of his abilities.
So no, there is no tactic. I meant it the way I said I meant it. And others got that as well. That you want to make debating the nuance of my post a hobby is your issue. I don't care. I watched Lance come up as a junior, and know what I and others thought of his abilities.
Hey, but if you want to go on saying that Lance winning atop mountain stages in the "low" mountains of two week races is comparable Cavendish making the time-cuts in "high" mountains of the TDF, so be it.
Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 01-18-13 at 12:41 PM.
#1365
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The specific premise in the OP's post that I was responding to is that Armstrong still would have won without using PED's because he was so much faster. And that's likely not true. Take away the PED's and he's going to lose more than 7 minutes over the other top contenders, who presumably were using EPO.
The OP's question wasn't who wins in a clean field, or whether Armstrong had an unfair advantage. The question was whether PED's can make that much time difference.
The OP's question wasn't who wins in a clean field, or whether Armstrong had an unfair advantage. The question was whether PED's can make that much time difference.
Yeah, if he raced without PEDs I wouldn't be surprised if he lost 10+ minutes.
#1367
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Remind me again...
Did LA launch a war on false pretenses?
Did LA lie about having sex with "that" woman
Did LA hoodwink an entire nation into voting for him for higher office
Did LA send people of the "wrong" race or religion to their deaths?
Did LA steal money from orphans, widows and retired people?
Did LA slash his wife's throat?
Did LA sexually molest children?
Did LA take money from your pocket?
Did LA motivate people to get off their fat asses and get on a bike to ride
Did LA make an average bike company fabulously rich?
Did LA give hope and inspiration to million of cancer victims, cancer survivors and their families?
Why the public opprobrium?
Why do you see the speck in your brother'seyebut fail to notice the beam that is in your own eye?
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
Did LA launch a war on false pretenses?
Did LA lie about having sex with "that" woman
Did LA hoodwink an entire nation into voting for him for higher office
Did LA send people of the "wrong" race or religion to their deaths?
Did LA steal money from orphans, widows and retired people?
Did LA slash his wife's throat?
Did LA sexually molest children?
Did LA take money from your pocket?
Did LA motivate people to get off their fat asses and get on a bike to ride
Did LA make an average bike company fabulously rich?
Did LA give hope and inspiration to million of cancer victims, cancer survivors and their families?
Why the public opprobrium?
Why do you see the speck in your brother'seyebut fail to notice the beam that is in your own eye?
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
I just watched a clip of Besty A's interview with Cooper...man she's a nut
Lance is one dumb ass to trust her with anything damaging.
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The real tragedy of the EPO era is that we'll never know what could have been. Jonathan Vaughters has pointed out that it is crap to say that EPO use leveled the playing field. He gave the example of George Hincapie, who naturally had some biological/physiological advantage, in that his hematocrit level was much higher than normal (probably due to his ancestors coming from the mountains of Colombia), but that natural advantage was neutralised by the EPO doping of his rivals. So George, who could have probably dominated his rivals in the pro peloton (at least in the mountains and time trials), just ended up being a super-domestic.
#1369
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Lemond is a tool; it was pretty clear that Lance was saying what David Walsh has said: doping was "pervasive" in pro-cycling during the 90s.
#1370
Professional Fuss-Budget
All he could do is smirk and say "I never called you fat." Even Oprah didn't buy that one.
2) He didn't "trust her" with anything. She was in the room when Armstrong told one of his doctors that he had done a whole bunch of PED's.
She actually did what you're supposed to do -- namely, tell the truth when asked about it in a court of law.
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I'm curious, what did Lance to to Frankie's career? I do remember him staying on with USPS after he retired, at least through 2001.
Yeah, he did come of as his old self.
I doubt he's really sorry about calling her what he did.
My guess is that he felt that she was really bothered by thinking he called her fat , and thought it funny -- ironic maybe -- that she was really upset over something he hadn't said.
Sure, but the reason she was called to testify is because she had opened her mouth before, but not while Frankie was making $$ on the team. She wasn't so nuts that she spoke truthfully while her hubby was getting a paycheck and some of that TDF prize $
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I think most people , myself included thought the guy was a schmuck on his best day. It seems to me that he did this Oprah thing purely for his own reasons. I dont know what those could be, but I highly doubt he did this for anyone's benefit except his own. All these comments relating his admission to other deeds that others have done is just silly. Its actually what I think is wrong with the world in this age, there is no honor. It is a rare thing when a person does the right thing because it is the right thing to do. I don't mean not dope in the first place or never make a mistake, but when you do, understand what societies rules and conventions are and fess up. Dont try to bend things to favor your mistake.
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#1375
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All the people that you listed above are still alive, none of them are pushing daisies.
They all had a chance to fight LA in court, yet they chose not to.
Whether he bribed the UCI is just that, speculation.
Do any of the holier-than-thou posters here have a perfect record?
Posters here remind me of a bunch of vultures feasting on the corpse of the man who, for millions of riders and cancer victims, was the inspiration to get off the couch and start doing something positive.
They all had a chance to fight LA in court, yet they chose not to.
Whether he bribed the UCI is just that, speculation.
Do any of the holier-than-thou posters here have a perfect record?
Posters here remind me of a bunch of vultures feasting on the corpse of the man who, for millions of riders and cancer victims, was the inspiration to get off the couch and start doing something positive.
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You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.