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My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news

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My (slightly tearful) reaction to the Armstrong news

Old 01-10-13, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer
Had he and every other racer refrained from using, I'm confident he still would have been or at least nearly as succcessful as he was. Sure I believe he "cheated" (used PEDs), but I also believe that about nearly every other pro.
No one will ever know of course. My bet is Armstrong would have been very successful, likely still the most successful of his generation. However, I think it's highly likely he would have won fewer TDF's and almost certainly not 7 in a row.

2 reasons: 1) The very sophisticated doping program Armstrong had going limited competition from others with less resources.

2) Steroids, Transfusions, and EPO, made it a lot easier to get through a Tour without bad days. Riders are more consistent on PED's and with the benefit of boosted transfusions. Take those away, and the odds that Armstrong cracks one day, and loses one of those tours go up substantially.
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Old 01-10-13, 03:37 PM
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^Pretty much agree.
We'll never know, but I suspect he (Ulrich & Indurain) benifted more than the light-weight climbers of his era from PEDs.
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Old 01-10-13, 04:30 PM
  #978  
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Originally Posted by telebianchi
If I understood things correctly, the DOJ was investigating whether Lance used United States govt money (through USPS sponsorship) to fund illegal activities (use of illegal PEDs) and that doing so violated the contract with USPS. So they could only directly investigate the time-frame where USPS was the sponsor. They had to show that it was USPS money and not money from some other source that was used for any illegal activity they may have found. So DOJ may have had (and likely did in my opinion) plenty of info showing that Lance doped but if they couldn't follow the money back to USPS sponsorship they would not have had much of a case.
According to what was published those investigating were told the case was being dropped. There wasn't given a choice. The implication was that it was politically influenced, and they felt they had a solid case. Velonews is trying to get the documentation on that released using the freedom of information act, but there are folks interested in who pulled the strings on getting it dropped suddenly.
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Old 01-10-13, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
According to what was published those investigating were told the case was being dropped. There wasn't given a choice. The implication was that it was politically influenced, and they felt they had a solid case. Velonews is trying to get the documentation on that released using the freedom of information act, but there are folks interested in who pulled the strings on getting it dropped suddenly.
And to support your "insinuation,", if I may call it that. Why is it taking the DOJ forever to decide to join Floyd's whistle blower lawsuit against LA? I would think after USADA's reasoned decision, the DOJ can well see that Landis' lawsuit has some merit. I can see them making a political decision not to go after LA criminally, but darn it, they should try and win some money for the taxpayers from Lance.
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Old 01-11-13, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gr23932
That might one day apply to Lance..
Never happen.
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Old 01-11-13, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Jed19
. I can see them making a political decision not to go after LA criminally, but darn it, they should try and win some money for the taxpayers from Lance.

Putting aside the millions and millions of dollars that Lance Armstrong has paid in taxes, why do you think the US government should go after Armstrong to win even more money for the paxpayers ?
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Old 01-11-13, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Angio Graham
Putting aside the millions and millions of dollars that Lance Armstrong has paid in taxes, why do you think the US government should go after Armstrong to win even more money for the taxpayers ?
There is a difference between "income taxes" and "damages" resulting from a civil infringement/contractual breach. If LA or his team (US Postal) violated the terms of their contract with the US Postal Service (a taxpayer owned entity), then the DOJ's civil division is obligated to recover some damages, provided it's a feasible case, and there is enough/substantial money to be recovered.
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Old 01-11-13, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jed19
There is a difference between "income taxes" and "damages" resulting from a civil infringement/contractual breach. If LA or his team (US Postal) violated the terms of their contract with the US Postal Service (a taxpayer owned entity), then the DOJ's civil division is obligated to recover some damages, provided it's a feasible case, and there is enough/substantial money to be recovered.
how was the postal service damaged ? they lose about $6 billion a year due to gross incompetence and Lance Armstrong is probably they only thing in 30 years that made them any type of profit or return on investment.
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Old 01-11-13, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Angio Graham
Putting aside the millions and millions of dollars that Lance Armstrong has paid in taxes, why do you think the US government should go after Armstrong to win even more money for the paxpayers ?
Where's your proof he paid millions and millions of dollars in taxes?

Any business person worth their salt arranges their affairs so their tax liability is minimised (legally). There are many, many zillionaires in the world who pay almost no personal tax because their trusts and family companies are arranged that way.

Whether Armstrong and his legal and accounting teams have paid enough attention in that areas remains to be seen.

While USPS is not directly a government operation, the sponsorship money was used to support a person and team whose behaviour resulted in null and void results for a large number of races. USPS's reputation has been tarnished, and the fact that it loses large amounts of money each year is irrelevant.

The thing that might save him is the wording of the sponsorship contract, including sunset clauses, and the statute of limitations on taking action for recovery. Merlinextraligh may be able to shed light (again?) on that.

I am still wondering whether there could be some racketeering charges floating around in the background. But as with most gangsters who serve time, the likelihood is that Armstrong might be done over for some moderately low-level crime paper crime such as tax evasion.
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Old 01-11-13, 08:46 PM
  #985  
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Originally Posted by Angio Graham
how was the postal service damaged ?
They weren't.
But lance is a dick. So, if you're a dick and dope people make baseless assucations.
However, if you're a swell guy and dope then you're "brave" for breaking the omerta
and people will ignore your transgressions and even reward you for them -- D. Millar
comes to mind.
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Old 01-11-13, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer
They weren't.
But lance is a dick. So, if you're a dick and dope people make baseless assucations.
However, if you're a swell guy and dope then you're "brave" for breaking the omerta
and people will ignore your transgressions and even reward you for them -- D. Millar
comes to mind.
<shrug> I've got no stake in this apart from the implication that Cadel Evans doped. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. What say you, huh?

What about the sprinters? Maybe they were all doped to the eyeballs with steroids to get those huge thighs and power outputs, and generous doses of EPO to get them through the mountains and to the finish in Paris. Maybe not.

As to the others, they admitted their doping, and have been penalised for that admission, including Millar.

Has Armstrong ever admitted doping, despite all the evidence to the contrary, including several positives at the time, and reportedly a large number resulting from retests since?
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Old 01-11-13, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Rowan
Where's your proof he paid millions and millions of dollars in taxes?


I have his tax returns here in my back pack.

Sounds to me like you have been drinking some Kool Aid about rich people dodging taxes.

Yes efforts are always made to lower a persons tax burder, but Lance had multiple years of reported salary of over $10 million per year. I believe some years as high as $30 million.

Just take a single one of those years and he would be in 36-39.5% of federal income tax bracket

Do I have proof ? I have common sense.

Lance Armstrong surely paid MILLIONS and MILLIONS in federal taxes.
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Old 01-12-13, 01:11 AM
  #988  
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Originally Posted by FrenchFit
The story that isn't being followed is ... why did our DOJ suddenly drop its investigation/prosecution of Armstrong? Who pulled their strings on Armstrong's behalf?
Bush did it...
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Old 01-12-13, 07:07 AM
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The Oprah & Lance chat fest....

Ok people, why Oprah? Why not just come clean in a sit down with Greg Lemond as the interviewer? Or get the TDF team and have Phil L do the interview.
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Old 01-12-13, 07:17 AM
  #990  
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I think Oprah trademarked this kind of discourse. No one else is allowed to do it, and we're not supposed to ask why.
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Old 01-12-13, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Angio Graham
I have his tax returns here in my back pack.

Sounds to me like you have been drinking some Kool Aid about rich people dodging taxes.

Yes efforts are always made to lower a persons tax burder, but Lance had multiple years of reported salary of over $10 million per year. I believe some years as high as $30 million.

Just take a single one of those years and he would be in 36-39.5% of federal income tax bracket

Do I have proof ? I have common sense.

Lance Armstrong surely paid MILLIONS and MILLIONS in federal taxes.
Perhaps he had the same quality tax lawyers and accountants that he had pharmacists.
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Old 01-12-13, 07:50 AM
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If Oprah can do civil interviews with Tom Cruise, she can do the same for Lance.
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Old 01-12-13, 08:14 AM
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I hope he refuses to talk about anything drug related. That would be hilarious.
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Old 01-12-13, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by rebel1916
I hope he refuses to talk about anything drug related. That would be hilarious.
"my attorneys have advised me not to answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me".
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Old 01-12-13, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rebel1916
I hope he refuses to talk about anything drug related. That would be hilarious.
One thing for sure...the whole thing is a PR stunt. Will be interesting to see what level of atonement Lance admits. Keep in mind that admission of doping 'may' have economic ramifications based upon previous lawsuits he won when he lied under oath. Depends on statute of limitations. The only reason why he is doing this is...he wants to still compete...and admission and contrition is his only way. It will likely cost him however to get back in the game. Lance like many champions, never makes a single move without careful consideration and no doubt he has had many lawyers help him with his roadmap.
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Old 01-12-13, 09:25 AM
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Will she be giving carbon bikes to everyone in the audience
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Old 01-12-13, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Walter
As the article says coming clean puts LA in serious difficulty with a number of civil suits against him and raises the possibility of a criminal charge of perjury as well.

Alot of stars will have to align before he can "come clean."
If his legal team were on the ball, he would have covered some important bases. One base would be "asset protection" in the event of a legal claim.

His worse case scenario would be that he cannot compete in the triathlon and still face charges that puts him away: incarceration for a period of time. He has to think of the legacy he leaves to all his many children.
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Old 01-12-13, 10:08 AM
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Lance Armstrong is a Smuck. I have destroyed anything I have which compliments him as a pro cyclist. Yellow and Black have become my least favorite colors and I hope he becomes homeless living under a trussel bridge somewhere in Oregon.

He has taken (among others) the sport and totally destroyed it.
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Old 01-12-13, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinLine
Lance Armstrong is a Smuck. I have destroyed anything I have which compliments him as a pro cyclist. Yellow and Black have become my least favorite colors and I hope he becomes homeless living under a trussel bridge somewhere in Oregon.

He has taken (among others) the sport and totally destroyed it.
I am quite certain that the sports' character was in jeopardy well before Lance.

My daughter gave me a coffee table book on Lance in 2009. I cannot destroy it for that reason, but it is a nice little time capsule.
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Old 01-12-13, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ThinLine
Lance Armstrong is a Smuck. I have destroyed anything I have which compliments him as a pro cyclist. Yellow and Black have become my least favorite colors and I hope he becomes homeless living under a trussel bridge somewhere in Oregon.

He has taken (among others) the sport and totally destroyed it.

Wow. What did he do to you? There must be more to this emotional outburst.
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