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Which is worst? A cheater? a liar? or a rat?

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Which is worst? A cheater? a liar? or a rat?

Old 07-26-10, 09:38 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by rogwilco View Post
Armstrong's own positive doping tests which are conveniently forgotten by his fans
This is the only line of your statement I have a problem with. No matter what else anyone believes or doesnt believe about him personally; he has technically never failed a drug test. If you're talking about the B samples that got leaked, people can't use that against any cyclist, regardless of what the result of it was. Reason being? Both sides (cyclists and governing bodies, and scientists) agree the A and B samples have to be positive, because samples get contaminated, scientists make mistakes, etc.

Even if he hadn't provided the medical certificate for the cortisoid creme, his reading wasnt in the positive range anyways.

Im mostly neutral, though I give most of the cyclists the benefit of the doubt. Not because I'm naive, but because we live our world by a certain set of rules, and until you're proven to have broken those rules, everything else is supposition.
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Old 07-27-10, 06:38 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by vkalia View Post
^^ That is an asinine argument. You really think a doper will publish his real W/kg number? And remember - a lot of the doping is for recovery/endurance, not necessarily greater power.
Of course its asinine and that was my point. I was using rogwilco's argument aginst him. Please try to keep up with the smart kids.
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Old 07-27-10, 09:56 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by TechKnowGN View Post
This is the only line of your statement I have a problem with. No matter what else anyone believes or doesnt believe about him personally; he has technically never failed a drug test. If you're talking about the B samples that got leaked, people can't use that against any cyclist, regardless of what the result of it was. Reason being? Both sides (cyclists and governing bodies, and scientists) agree the A and B samples have to be positive, because samples get contaminated, scientists make mistakes, etc.

Even if he hadn't provided the medical certificate for the cortisoid creme, his reading wasnt in the positive range anyways.
Armstrong was never banned for doping, but that's not the same thing as having never failed a test. The 1999 EPO tests couldn't be used against him for purely procedural reasons, not for scientific reasons. That's like a thief who gets acquitted because the police didn't read his Miranda rights. He doesn't go to prison, but he's still a thief.

Also besides the cortison thing, the EPO test, and his legal use of testosteron patches (because of his cancer) and the as of yet unproven accusation from Landis that there were positive tests that were covered up by the UCI there also his long-time association with Michele Ferrari who really only has one thing he does - consulting athletes on how to take illegal performance enhancing drugs. There is absolutely no ambiguity what Ferrari does and why anybody pays him for his advice.

Im mostly neutral, though I give most of the cyclists the benefit of the doubt. Not because I'm naive, but because we live our world by a certain set of rules, and until you're proven to have broken those rules, everything else is supposition.
Yeah, that's how I handle it too mostly; until the evidence becomes overwhelming at least.
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Old 07-27-10, 10:54 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by rogwilco View Post
Armstrong was never banned for doping, but that's not the same thing as having never failed a test. The 1999 EPO tests couldn't be used against him for purely procedural reasons, not for scientific reasons. That's like a thief who gets acquitted because the police didn't read his Miranda rights. He doesn't go to prison, but he's still a thief.
That's the point: Is it procedural? Aside from the fact that no one has proven the numbers match Armstrong, governing bodies have questioned the ethics of the process as well as the fact that there's no way to know for sure if the tests were done properly against uncontaminated samples. That goes way past procedural.

Thats like saying we have a guys fingerprints, but they may or may not be this guys fingerprints, and we may or may not have gotten them from the scene of the crime.
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Old 07-27-10, 11:38 AM
  #55  
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a Rat is worse. because EVERYONE was cheating and by cheating everyone is automatically liars. He had the option to take responsibility for his actions and he didnt. then he doesnt get invited to the TOC so he then says ok ok ok i cheated BUT wait dont punish me...im gonna RAT everyone else out instead of taking responsibility for his actions.
See, now that Landis has ratted everyone else out, true or not, everyone is talking about Lance cheating. Did we all forget that Landis just admitted he cheated and he should be penalized for lying about it and he made millions on his book that he wrote about how he was innocent.
Landis = Canseco nobody will rememer either of them as great athletes, everyone will remember them as the guys who brought down their sport because they got caught.
Vino cheated, then he served his sentence and came back and rode well in his last tour. Basso cheated, then he came back and won the Giro.

Watch the movie Bigger, Faster, Stronger everyone in sports is trying to get ahead, and we love them, pay them, cheer them, and never question them...then he gets caught and we hate him. but if he didnt get caught and when he retired wrote a book that said I used to Juice...well then we just say to ourselves. "yeah i figured something was up"
my most memorable baseball moment was watching Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa go after the HR record. I could have cared less that they were juicing I wanted to see Home Runs.
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Old 07-27-10, 04:56 PM
  #56  
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A rat exposes the truth, and that is bad? The truth is bad?
very strange culture indeed.
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Old 07-27-10, 05:47 PM
  #57  
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A Rat exposes everyone elses truth after being busted himself, so he can deflect fault and responsibility.
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Old 07-27-10, 07:10 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by techknowgn View Post
this is the only line of your statement i have a problem with. No matter what else anyone believes or doesnt believe about him personally; he has technically never failed a drug test. If you're talking about the b samples that got leaked, people can't use that against any cyclist, regardless of what the result of it was. Reason being? Both sides (cyclists and governing bodies, and scientists) agree the a and b samples have to be positive, because samples get contaminated, scientists make mistakes, etc.

Even if he hadn't provided the medical certificate for the cortisoid creme, his reading wasnt in the positive range anyways.

Im mostly neutral, though i give most of the cyclists the benefit of the doubt. Not because i'm naive, but because we live our world by a certain set of rules, and until you're proven to have broken those rules, everything else is supposition.

x 1
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Old 07-28-10, 07:36 AM
  #59  
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Oddly, even though I've called Landis every name in the book, I still kind'a like the guy. I'd have a beer with him (if he bought it).

Lance, well, I'd be very disappointed if he was proven to be a seven-tour doper. Even though I think he has. I think this years tour was a last minute, planned melt-down—strictly because of the Landis accusations. Can't say if I was him that I'd want a high, tour contending profile right about now.

Lemond is ruining my memories of his greatness. I wish he'd just shut-up and be a gracious, former 3-time TDF Champion. And start making bikes again.
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Old 07-28-10, 09:06 AM
  #60  
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Lemond needs to go away.
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Old 07-29-10, 10:59 AM
  #61  
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I'm glad that some of you guys aren't sitting on any juries right now. You have LA proven guilty without any evidence. Several of you have pointed out some things that are purely circumstantial and while might get an raised eyebrow when taken by themselves still don't add up to anything that can convict. As I said in an earlier post..."What happened to innocent until proven guilty?". Until he's proven guilty in a court of law I'm still a Lance Fan. Even if he's proven guilty I'll still be a Livestrong fan and supporter because the organization just does too much dammed good for people with cancer and their families.

As for Landis I think someone said it earlier. Landis is broke and needs a way to get face time and money in his pocket. He tasted the limelight and then it went away. He wants that again and this is a way to get it.

As for Lemond I agree with an earlier poster. I wish he would just shut up and make bikes.
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Old 07-29-10, 11:11 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by jbman100 View Post
As for Lemond I agree with an earlier poster. I wish he would just shut up and make bikes.
There are plenty of other bike companies out there, I wish he would just shut up and go away. As for all the Lance haters all I can say is that I am happy to say that I have never felt so much hate towards someone that I have never even met.

As for Lance and doping, I don't believe that he doped any more than any of the other recent tour winners. Not saying it's right, just saying what I believe.
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Old 07-29-10, 11:13 AM
  #63  
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Has anyone asked Landis if he doped during 2006?
If so, what was his answer? Does he still claim to have won it "clean"?
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Old 07-29-10, 11:53 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
Has anyone asked Landis if he doped during 2006?
If so, what was his answer? Does he still claim to have won it "clean"?
Yes, he still claims to be clean in 2006.
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Old 07-29-10, 11:57 AM
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All right then, he's totally trustworthy.
Armstrong did everything Landis said he did.
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Old 07-29-10, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TechKnowGN View Post
Yes, he still claims to be clean in 2006.
Sort of. From how I understand it what he denies is not having doped in 2006 (in fact he also made some additional accusations against current Team BMC Racing Team owner Rihs that at Phonak the team paid for his doping or so) but he denies having doped in the way he was accused of; basically he's saying he should've been caught because of different stuff but not because of the testosterone - which is not only a very strange argument but really stretches credulity to its limit to say the least...
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Old 07-29-10, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by rogwilco View Post
which is not only a very strange argument but really stretches credulity to its limit to say the least...
Alrighty then, maybe Lance didn't do anything Landis claimed he did.
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Old 07-29-10, 01:16 PM
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Landis lying about that specific point doesn't change the credibility of all the other things he says in the least in my book.
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Old 07-29-10, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rogwilco View Post
Landis lying about that specific point doesn't change the credibility of all the other things he says in the least in my book.
If someone already thinks Lance is guilty then they will be very selective about what affects his credibility and what doesn't. Same goes for those that think he is innocent. The only thing that any of us can really do is just wait and see what happens, I have a feeling it is going to get very interesting in a couple of months.
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Old 07-29-10, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by foamy View Post
Oddly, even though I've called Landis every name in the book, I still kind'a like the guy. I'd have a beer with him (if he bought it).

Lance, well, I'd be very disappointed if he was proven to be a seven-tour doper. Even though I think he has. I think this years tour was a last minute, planned melt-down—strictly because of the Landis accusations. Can't say if I was him that I'd want a high, tour contending profile right about now.

Lemond is ruining my memories of his greatness. I wish he'd just shut-up and be a gracious, former 3-time TDF Champion. And start making bikes again.
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Old 07-29-10, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by rogwilco View Post
Landis lying about that specific point doesn't change the credibility of all the other things he says in the least in my book.
Of course not; that would be silly.
Why anyone would expect that Landis' lying would change the credibility of all the other things he's said is beyond me as well.
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Old 07-29-10, 07:02 PM
  #72  
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Personally I think Lance doped "back" then ". Right now I could care less and do not understand the the feds opening an investigation into it. The country's going broke and the feds are worried about what happening in a cycling race that took place in another country 5+ years ago? I mean WTF ! Spend the money, if they must, harrassing modern day offenders in some sport that takes place here in the USA.

To answer the Ops question there is nothing in my mind honorable or charming about being a "rat'' and therefore I believe rats should be ranked at the bottom of that barrel.
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Old 07-29-10, 08:39 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by jbman100 View Post
I'm glad that some of you guys aren't sitting on any juries right now. You have LA proven guilty without any evidence.
Ummmm, yea...... there IS evidence... And lots of it. Just a matter of time until his celebrety status cant keep him out of prison. Oh, and did you miss the part of him paying off officials? How do you think, sir, evidence would surface, when it is being held by those being paid by LA?
Oh boy, somebody who actually thinks the justcie system is impervious to money... humerous actually.... and kinda sad, and kinda scary that there are actual citizens in this world unaware.

Originally Posted by jbman100 View Post
As for Lemond I agree with an earlier poster. I wish he would just shut up and make bikes.
Ummmm.... yea..... thats kinda one of the reasons why he wont shut up.... Is this internet thing on?
Lemond was essentially shafted by Lance with Trek. Perhaps, just perhaps, if LA wasnt so greedy, Lemond would be sitting back just enjoying making bikes... howzabout that?
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Old 07-29-10, 08:42 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
Has anyone asked Landis if he doped during 2006?
If so, what was his answer? Does he still claim to have won it "clean"?
Bjan Riis admitted to being at 60% in the 1996 tour when he won, oh wait you are talking about 2006.
Nah, in 2006 people weren't aware that drugs existed, and cheating was well out of fashion by then anyways, he was totally clean in 2006, of course, its obvious, i mean, common, 10 years later? Yea, and pharmaceutical technology went steps backwards too. The hippies also finally convinced mankind to not be greedy and cheat anyway, yea, it took them ten years, but by 2006 cheating was totally unethical, totally. And cyclists were paid far less anyway, making cheating far less attractive, yea, totally less attractive... like, totally lame to cheat, if people would find out you cheated by 2006, they would laugh and point at you, and call you names.

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Old 07-30-10, 07:55 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
Ummmm, yea...... there IS evidence... And lots of it. Just a matter of time until his celebrety status cant keep him out of prison. Oh, and did you miss the part of him paying off officials? How do you think, sir, evidence would surface, when it is being held by those being paid by LA?
Oh boy, somebody who actually thinks the justcie system is impervious to money... humerous actually.... and kinda sad, and kinda scary that there are actual citizens in this world unaware.
An until that evidence gets into a court of LAW and not the court of (how do we want to spin this to make it super sensational when it really isn't) the PRESS then that evidence isn't worth a plug nickel. No I didn't miss the part about him allegedly paying officials, nor the part about him allegedly doping. Again all allegations that have yet to be proven. Oh an I know how the justice system works as I was in it for 20 years and saw exactly what you are referring to about the rich and/or famous getting off and preferential treatment

Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
Ummmm.... yea..... thats kinda one of the reasons why he wont shut up.... Is this internet thing on?
Lemond was essentially shafted by Lance with Trek. Perhaps, just perhaps, if LA wasnt so greedy, Lemond would be sitting back just enjoying making bikes... howzabout that?
Did Lance get greedy or did Trek get greedy? Did Trek dump LeMond because they didn't want to deal with 2 prima donna athletes and since LeMond was on the way down and Lance was on the way up they cut their losses early?


I think that you are missing my point. What I'm saying is that many posters here are finding LA guilty and as yet don't have all the facts. What they have is the word of a proven liar and a cheat, and the word of a press that loves to put a spin on what it reports so it can sell papers, get ratings or get web site hits.

Oh boy, somebody who actually thinks the press is impervious to slanted reporting... humorous actually.... and kinda sad, and kinda scary that there are actual citizens in this world who believe everything they read or see on television without doing any real research.
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