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Old 05-24-11, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Most folks think of express package delivery, generically. "Fed Ex" to express delivery is like Kleenex to tissue. Most folks don't make a lot of note whether their shipment comes Fed Ex, UPS, or USPS priority mail, or DHL, particularly 6-7 years later.

I could not tell you whether the parts I got from Excel Sports last week came by Fed Ex or UPS, but I know they came express deliverly.

On the one hand, I agree, I wouldn't recall later possibly. But since he made this out to be such a huge moment and turning point in his career about being asked to "Take care of his hemotacrit levels", and that he called Lance's secret Bat Phone number he had memorized surely, you wouldn't want to write it down or store it on your secret phone would you? It makes you wonder how somebody can clearly recall all the exact details about calling Lance and asking for EPO, and it then shows up later, and not remember certain things. But maybe this is one thing he doesn't recall. Along with, "somebody told me" that he said numerous times about things he "knew" about Lance's doping. Ok..who are these "somebodies"?
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Old 05-24-11, 12:02 PM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by zigmeister
It makes you wonder how somebody can clearly recall all the exact details about calling Lance and asking for EPO, and it then shows up later, and not remember certain things.
Do you think it's important for Hamilton to remember what color pants he was wearing when he made the call? How many other irrelevant details would he have to recall correctly to convince you he was truthful?
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Old 05-24-11, 12:25 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by zigmeister
On the one hand, I agree, I wouldn't recall later possibly. But since he made this out to be such a huge moment and turning point in his career about being asked to "Take care of his hemotacrit levels", and that he called Lance's secret Bat Phone number he had memorized surely, you wouldn't want to write it down or store it on your secret phone would you? It makes you wonder how somebody can clearly recall all the exact details about calling Lance and asking for EPO, and it then shows up later, and not remember certain things. But maybe this is one thing he doesn't recall. Along with, "somebody told me" that he said numerous times about things he "knew" about Lance's doping. Ok..who are these "somebodies"?
You seem to be putting words or feelings into his mouth that were not there, from what I saw, he was much more matter-of-fact about it than you are trying to spin it.

Do you have kids? You remember what day they were born, perhaps what hospital they were born in, right? Do you remember your wife's room number? The color and pattern of her hospital gown? The name of the doctor? The name of any attending nurses or assistants?

How about your high school or college commencement ceremonies - can you tell us the names of the people who got their diplomas directly ahead or behind you? Do I need to go on?

The point is, memory is pretty selective and the minor details you deem important enough to remember or not may or may not be the case with someone else.
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Old 05-24-11, 01:00 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I hear DSK was a pretty good economist.
He still is, and he might still be the président of France.
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Old 05-26-11, 07:58 AM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by thump55
It sounds like you need congress and a court to decide for you if Lance doped. The rest of us don't.
.
BTW, maybe you want to discuss the finer legal details of this case with OJ.
This isn't about whether or not he doped, it's about whether the evidence is enough to convict him. IMO, the testimony of scumbags like Landis and Hamilton is worthless. There was lots of physical evidence in the OJ trial but so far none in this case, as far as I can tell. Lots of smoke but no fire.

Also, who is the "us" you refer to in your message? Is there a gang of cycling morons I need to look out for on the road? Are you the self appointed mouthpiece for the group or the actual leader? Either way, I'm guessing you are at the front of the pack and the idiots have chosen wisely.

I could care less what you or anyone else on this forum thinks. You don't need any evidence to make up your mind but the testimony of less than credible witnesses is gladly accepted, as long as their opinion is in line with yours. Just remember, in a criminal court of law, the standard of proof is much different than an internet forum or civil court. Lance doesn't have to prove he is innocent, they have to prove he is guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, to a jury. The words and accounts of guys like Tyler and Floyd don't carry much weight among reasonable and intelligent people, and I don't expect them to carry much weight with a jury unless they can offer some kind of physical evidence (pictures, recordings, etc.). "Reasonable and intelligent" are probably not requirements for your little group so you don't need to worry.

Cheers,

FB
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Old 05-26-11, 08:17 AM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo
Landis reported that they sold donated bike components to help fund the doping.
That might be the best defense against the allegations, but I think it is principally a contractual issue;
i.e. the contract prohibited doping.
They meaning Lance or "they" meaning Landis and Hamilton. I bet if Lance didn't have to sell bike parts to get money for PEDs. I remember when Discovery sold bike components and parts on Ebay. No different than what Garmin did last year. Garmin was selling off their old bikes on Ebay last year for ridiculous prices. It doesn't seem anything out of the ordinary.

Proving any postal service money was spent on doping is nearly impossible. Proving lance did anything is also nearly as impossible. We (the federal government) will probably spend MILLIONS making this case. MILLIONS on an issue that honestly they should just stay out of. Just like BALCO. What good actually came of BALCO and how much money did we spend on it? In a time where every dollar should count and we are bleeding money as a country, is this the BEST way to spend our $? On retired sports figures that were never caught while they competed. Each sport has it's own governing body and if they couldn't catch him or anyone else, then why is it the government's job to waste our money figuring it out?

Did Lance dope? I honeslty don't care anymore. If cycling's governing body couldn't catch him after 500 tries....just let it go.

So basically...the US Government will spend millions building a case which will be upteen times more than what was spent on any PEDs and all Lance has to do is not get caught in a lie. If Hincappie really came forward, he might be screwed but who knows. The cost still isn't worth it. This is NOT the government's fight. Neither was steroids in Baseball. The function of the government is NOT to police sports.

Yes, I know...Postal Service....all Lance's attorneys have to do is sit back and laugh as the government tries to build a case that the team used Postal Service money to buy drugs. They won't be able to do it. Lance can just keepy denying anything. It will take years. Meanwhile that money could have gone to education, homeless, roads or anything other than this waste of time.
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Old 05-26-11, 09:56 AM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by Rutnick
the case the federal government is making isn't whether or not Lance used PEDs. It's whether or not he used sponsor money (postal service) to buy them. That's what they are looking to prove and it will be impossible.
Actually, I believe all they need to do is to prove (to the standards the jury chooses to apply when directed to do so by the judge) that he deliberately violated the terms of the contract by using, and/or conspiring with others to cause the use of, PEDs. No need to prove that USPS funds were specifically used to purchase the drugs.
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Old 05-26-11, 10:07 AM
  #208  
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and the comment remains...doesn't the federal government have anything better to do? Spending millions to prove what? If they couldn't get Bonds, you think they will get Lance?
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Old 05-26-11, 10:14 AM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by AzTallRider
Actually, I believe all they need to do is to prove (to the standards the jury chooses to apply when directed to do so by the judge) that he deliberately violated the terms of the contract by using, and/or conspiring with others to cause the use of, PEDs. No need to prove that USPS funds were specifically used to purchase the drugs.
But I would guess that the consequences of these two things are different. Used PEDs when the contract said you wouldn't? Set damages, slap on the wrist (ouch). Used USPS/US Government money to purchase controlled substances? Probably a bigger deal to the sentencing judge.
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Old 05-26-11, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Rutnick
and the comment remains...doesn't the federal government have anything better to do? Spending millions to prove what? If they couldn't get Bonds, you think they will get Lance?
Bonds wasn't under federal contract. Whether they "get Lance" or not, they have to try. If they didn't, they would (justifiably) be accused of leaving him alone because of his wealth and popularity. I just watched the interview of Scott Pelley someone posted:

https://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_1...ag=component.0

Talk about compelling... Scott feels they had to drag it all out of Tyler, and Tyler did everything he could to make it clear that it isn't a "Lance" thing, but a systemic problem with the sport. Tyler points the finger at himself more than at anyone else. He will be very credible to a jury.
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Old 05-26-11, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by telebianchi
But I would guess that the consequences of these two things are different. Used PEDs when the contract said you wouldn't? Set damages, slap on the wrist (ouch). Used USPS/US Government money to purchase controlled substances? Probably a bigger deal to the sentencing judge.
It was a multi-million dollar contract. Felony sentencing generally escalates based on the amount of money involved. The use of PEDs appears very central to performance under the contract. Knowing in advance that PEDS would be used, encouraging it with other teammates, etc., takes it out of mere failure to perform under the contract, and into the fraud and conspiracy realm. The potential penalties, in the form of prison time, will be significant.
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Old 05-26-11, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
You can try to rationalize it all you want...but by participating Lance only showed himself to be more chump than champ.
That just means that there were about 198 chumps in whatever race was taking place at any time. Maybe each race had a champ chump?
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Old 05-26-11, 06:28 PM
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So if Bonds wasn't a federal employee, why did the FEDERAL government go after him? Why did they go after steroids in baseball? Why did they go after others? It wasn't their job.

Did USPS get the exposure they wanted? Yes. Was their team ever busted by ANY of the governing bodies in the sport? No

just let it go and move on. You are saying BALCO was worth it? Millions spent. This...more millions.
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Old 05-26-11, 07:06 PM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by Rutnick
So if Bonds wasn't a federal employee, why did the FEDERAL government go after him? Why did they go after steroids in baseball? Why did they go after others? It wasn't their job.

Did USPS get the exposure they wanted? Yes. Was their team ever busted by ANY of the governing bodies in the sport? No

just let it go and move on. You are saying BALCO was worth it? Millions spent. This...more millions.
You're kidding, right?
Quick search pulled this from ruaneattorneys.com. This appears to apply specifically to Connecticut, but let's see where it goes in general:
Prescription drugs are controlled substances. Possession or use of a prescription drug is illegal unless it is done with a legitimate prescription from a medical practitioner. Likewise, it is illegal to sell or possess with the intent to sell a prescription drug without being a medical practitioner who is authorized to do so.

It is illegal to possess a prescription drug without a legitimate prescription from a medical practitioner. ... Additionally, it is a crime to sell or possess with the intent to sell a prescription drug without the proper authority to do so. ...
"Sale" is any form of delivery, which includes barter, exchange or gift, or offer therefor, and each such transaction made by any person whether as principal, proprietor, agent, servant or employee.
Connecting the dots is simple.

If your argument is that the law ought to be changed, then make that argument. If your argument is that the laws currently on the books should not be enforced (and this is what it appears your post intends), I'm interested to know which laws should not be enforced, or if wealth and fame ought to give a person special treatment.
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Old 05-26-11, 09:15 PM
  #215  
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Originally Posted by Rutnick
Did USPS get the exposure they wanted? Yes. Was their team ever busted by ANY of the governing bodies in the sport? No
And in 2004, USPS believed it had received $103.6M in benefits out of its $32M investment:
https://www.denverpost.com/outdoors/ci_17102119
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Old 05-26-11, 09:35 PM
  #216  
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Originally Posted by H_B
You're kidding, right?
Quick search pulled this from ruaneattorneys.com. This appears to apply specifically to Connecticut, but let's see where it goes in general:
Prescription drugs are controlled substances. Possession or use of a prescription drug is illegal unless it is done with a legitimate prescription from a medical practitioner. Likewise, it is illegal to sell or possess with the intent to sell a prescription drug without being a medical practitioner who is authorized to do so.

It is illegal to possess a prescription drug without a legitimate prescription from a medical practitioner. ... Additionally, it is a crime to sell or possess with the intent to sell a prescription drug without the proper authority to do so. ...
"Sale" is any form of delivery, which includes barter, exchange or gift, or offer therefor, and each such transaction made by any person whether as principal, proprietor, agent, servant or employee.
Connecting the dots is simple.

If your argument is that the law ought to be changed, then make that argument. If your argument is that the laws currently on the books should not be enforced (and this is what it appears your post intends), I'm interested to know which laws should not be enforced, or if wealth and fame ought to give a person special treatment.
Don't forget that some of those substances involved were not approved drugs - I don't believe that "the clear" was ever approved by FDA or studied in any kind of clinical trial other than a non-randomized, flax-seed controlled study in MLB sluggers. That's not just illegal, it's downright dangerous and unethical.
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Old 05-31-11, 08:11 AM
  #217  
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I'm saying if the governing body of the sport never caught them...what job should the federal government have in policing a sport. Just like what job does the federal government have in education, what speed the states set speed limits or anything else.

You are citing connecticut law for federal proceeding?

One more time....the real crime they are trying to prove as I understand it is whether or not Lance used postal money to buy PEDs....Federal racketeering and conspiracy.

It's not some possession charge or selling.

Maybe you need to read up on what really is going on before you cite connecticut law.

I'm saying this once again....I will say right now that they will spend millions on the case and never get him on any big charge.
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Old 05-31-11, 07:25 PM
  #218  
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Originally Posted by Rutnick
I'm saying if the governing body of the sport never caught them...what job should the federal government have in policing a sport. Just like what job does the federal government have in education, what speed the states set speed limits or anything else.
....
I don't think the feds care about policing the sport. But if taking, selling, and/or distributing prescription drugs is illegal, then maybe they ought to care about the people doing that. Seems reasonable to me - why a guy would get a pass because he's famous or a pro athlete never did make any sense.
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Old 06-01-11, 08:42 AM
  #219  
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Actually, all you guys arguing that this is not a good use of Federal funds: this applies to the entire War of Drugs. There are plenty of studies showing that legalizing drugs and spending a fraction of that money on education and treatment would be better all around.

So, who's ready to sign a Legalize Drugs petition?

Originally Posted by H_B
I don't think the feds care about policing the sport. But if taking, selling, and/or distributing prescription drugs is illegal, then maybe they ought to care about the people doing that. Seems reasonable to me - why a guy would get a pass because he's famous or a pro athlete never did make any sense.
And prosecutors often go out of their way to make an example of celebrities. You see professional athletes getting busted all the time for minor stuff that would be ignored with most regular Joes. It aint new.
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Old 06-02-11, 09:09 AM
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and you see celebrities getting away with murder.
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Old 06-07-11, 04:01 AM
  #221  
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i think the facts4lance twitter account and the actual site was a crazy floyd landis job, is this right? facts4lance is private now, has this been posted?

https://goo.gl/kC3vJ

"GreyManrod‎ @cycletard We are celebrating the arrival of full ****** @joelfelicio tempered by the disappearance of Facts4Lance.com"

greymanrod is floyd:

https://neilbrowne.com/2011/05/is-the...tes-interview/
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Old 06-07-11, 08:46 PM
  #222  
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia
Exactly! Even assuming, arguendo, that Lance doped - so what?

What Lance has done for cancer survivors (like my wife) is beyond inspirational.

What has Tyler done for anyone?
Very much beside the point.
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Old 06-07-11, 09:04 PM
  #223  
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Doping is good and all you bastards know it.
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Old 06-11-11, 11:27 AM
  #224  
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80
You couldn't be more wrong.

Inspiration means a lot even if you die from cancer. Big difference in quality of life between the inspired and the uninspired. It also gives you the strength to keep battling. You may not beat a metastasizing cancer, but you can just lay down and die from something less potent too. Happens all the time.

Have you been there? Please tell us how you know this to be true that inspiration has little impact on cancer patients and their families.

J.
Well said.
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Old 06-11-11, 03:26 PM
  #225  
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No new news in awhile. Anyone else think someone will stir the pot again before TdF starts?
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