Naive TDF questions...
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Naive TDF questions...
I have been watching the TDF and haven't spent much time reading BF. Sorry if my questions have already been asked.
1. MONEY - What's the budget for the TDF teams? $20M for G-C? Is there a significant spread? It seems like Garmin-Cervelo is probably spending a lot more than Euskaltel-Euskad!
2. TEAMS - I would think most people who know who are interested in cycling probably know won last year's TDF, but do many know what team won? Or is it the team recognition mostly derived from the individual rider who won? (I still tend to think Astana when I think of Contador.)
3. MOVISTAR - What's the story with the Movistar team? I believe it's funded by Tom Cruise and Jackie Chen - is there some special connection between them or to cycling? (The team doesn't seem to be doing very well!)
4. GEARING - What gears are the sprinters using? 53/11 or bigger chainrings? Are all the top sprinters using similar gears?
5. CADENCE - How many RPM does Cavendish turn when he's sprinting? Is his ability to turn a high cadence or his power that gives him the advantage over other excellent sprinters (like Tyler Farrar yesterday in Stage 15)?
6. CADENCE - What sort of average cadence does the pack have for a mostly flat (?) stage like yesterday?
7. CADENCE - What sort of cadence do most the riders keep when climbing big climbs?
8. COVERAGE - Didn't Bob Roll used to be an announcer during the race, not just pre- and post-race or for special comments? Is he in the dog house or has he become a superstar? (I find him entertaining although I think he smiles too much.)
9. GREEN JERSEY - Is the HTC team focused entirely on winning the green jersey for Mark Cavendish? If so, does the green jersey carry enough "panache" (or "marketing clout" or whatever wording would be better) to make it worth the cost?
Thanks for any answers.
1. MONEY - What's the budget for the TDF teams? $20M for G-C? Is there a significant spread? It seems like Garmin-Cervelo is probably spending a lot more than Euskaltel-Euskad!
2. TEAMS - I would think most people who know who are interested in cycling probably know won last year's TDF, but do many know what team won? Or is it the team recognition mostly derived from the individual rider who won? (I still tend to think Astana when I think of Contador.)
3. MOVISTAR - What's the story with the Movistar team? I believe it's funded by Tom Cruise and Jackie Chen - is there some special connection between them or to cycling? (The team doesn't seem to be doing very well!)
4. GEARING - What gears are the sprinters using? 53/11 or bigger chainrings? Are all the top sprinters using similar gears?
5. CADENCE - How many RPM does Cavendish turn when he's sprinting? Is his ability to turn a high cadence or his power that gives him the advantage over other excellent sprinters (like Tyler Farrar yesterday in Stage 15)?
6. CADENCE - What sort of average cadence does the pack have for a mostly flat (?) stage like yesterday?
7. CADENCE - What sort of cadence do most the riders keep when climbing big climbs?
8. COVERAGE - Didn't Bob Roll used to be an announcer during the race, not just pre- and post-race or for special comments? Is he in the dog house or has he become a superstar? (I find him entertaining although I think he smiles too much.)
9. GREEN JERSEY - Is the HTC team focused entirely on winning the green jersey for Mark Cavendish? If so, does the green jersey carry enough "panache" (or "marketing clout" or whatever wording would be better) to make it worth the cost?
Thanks for any answers.
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2. TEAMS - I would think most people who know who are interested in cycling probably know won last year's TDF, but do many know what team won? Or is it the team recognition mostly derived from the individual rider who won? (I still tend to think Astana when I think of Contador.)
As for Cav, his power sure, but even above that is timing. Cavendish is actually not that much faster than everyone else in this year's Tour. Dont get me wrong, the boy is fast, just not as fast as the press is making him out to be. If you watch most finishes, the other sprinters are actually turning out FAR greater speed, its just that they are doing it too late. The man really winning the race is Cavis lead out man, because he basically just drops Cavi at the line. The other sprinters are just misjudging the sprint, because they are waiting for Cav to make the jump. But the problem is that Cav can see the line, and the other riders are an extra bike or two back, and causing them to misjudge the line. Basically Cav is getting the best seat in the house for the win. Again, dont get me wrong Cav is doing an amazing sprint.
Cadence has nothing to do with it. They are all using more or less the same cadence.
Then again, it simply could be that just he didnt want to do it. Or, the network didnt want to pay for it, might be as simple as that. I dont know the reason.
Cavi obviously doesnt deserve it though. He has never done anything to actually earn it. He is doing a typical Lance move, by not attacking, and just having his team deliver him to the line with ABSOLUTELY NO work on his part other than the glory sprint to the line.
Moreover though, he would have been eliminated by now if he hadn't had cheated and hung onto team cars in the mountain.
I had real respect for him as a sprinter, but this ambition for a green jersey disgusts me. He really does it dishonor by the way he is winning it. What a loser.
Now I know there are things people will disagree with, which is fine, I just hope its founded on something other than Lance Armstrong propagana and "Lance-facts"
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Most definitely on all counts.
Cavi obviously doesnt deserve it though. He has never done anything to actually earn it. He is doing a typical Lance move, by not attacking, and just having his team deliver him to the line with ABSOLUTELY NO work on his part other than the glory sprint to the line.
Moreover though, he would have been eliminated by now if he hadn't had cheated and hung onto team cars in the mountain.
I had real respect for him as a sprinter, but this ambition for a green jersey disgusts me. He really does it dishonor by the way he is winning it. What a loser.
Now I know there are things people will disagree with, which is fine, I just hope its founded on something other than Lance Armstrong propagana and "Lance-facts"
Cavi obviously doesnt deserve it though. He has never done anything to actually earn it. He is doing a typical Lance move, by not attacking, and just having his team deliver him to the line with ABSOLUTELY NO work on his part other than the glory sprint to the line.
Moreover though, he would have been eliminated by now if he hadn't had cheated and hung onto team cars in the mountain.
I had real respect for him as a sprinter, but this ambition for a green jersey disgusts me. He really does it dishonor by the way he is winning it. What a loser.
Now I know there are things people will disagree with, which is fine, I just hope its founded on something other than Lance Armstrong propagana and "Lance-facts"
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Movistar is the brand name of the Spanish mobile phone company. Team used to be sponsored by Caisse d'Epargne .
I don't think Tom Cruise or Jackie Chan has anything to do with it.
I don't think Tom Cruise or Jackie Chan has anything to do with it.
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Huh? This is flat out dumb. Cavandish is doing his job, plain and simple. It is Pate's job to set countless miles of tempo, Renshaw's job to sping to 200m and Cav to finish. That's just how it goes. That is sprinting. Cav is a loser for hunting the jersey? I think HTC and Cav have been simply amazing. Every other sprinters team has dumped the responsability on HTC and let them chase for 150k then lined up on Cav's wheel and waited for it. At that time HTC has still pulled off the win 4 times already.
In a way I find myself in a similar sitution as with Lance. I really really dislike fsome of his fanboys. I take exception to over broad statements about his accomplishments. (On htis board there was a thread a few days saying he was the greatest stage winner ever when he had not yet even won hte most stages for a sprinter).
But I try to make sure my dislike of his fans does not color my opinion of him. I'll let his actions determine that. And the odds seem good he will end his career with the most total stage wins in Grand Tours.
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Oh and Cycling is a team sport. Just not in the way it was with Lance where the whole team sacrificed only for him. The way things play out depending on just who is in a break or just who stands a chance of a win if things come back makes that clear. But a very different team sport as the actual award winners are almost always individuals.
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Huh? This is flat out dumb. Cavandish is doing his job, plain and simple. It is Pate's job to set countless miles of tempo, Renshaw's job to sping to 200m and Cav to finish. That's just how it goes. That is sprinting. Cav is a loser for hunting the jersey? I think HTC and Cav have been simply amazing. Every other sprinters team has dumped the responsability on HTC and let them chase for 150k then lined up on Cav's wheel and waited for it. At that time HTC has still pulled off the win 4 times already.
You have some learning to do.
Oh and Cycling is a team sport. Just not in the way it was with Lance where the whole team sacrificed only for him. The way things play out depending on just who is in a break or just who stands a chance of a win if things come back makes that clear. But a very different team sport as the actual award winners are almost always individuals.
You have much learning of cycling to do.
You seem to think that cycling is the only cycling race on the calendar.
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Cycling is a team sport, but there is a "first among equals/captain" around whom the team revolves. The team, usually is built to support a GC contender.
If built ideally, the team should have a GC contender, some two or three decent climbers, a good time-trialist, a sprinter and some domestiques.
Of course, most cycling races are not grand tours, so the classics are just every man for himself, for the most part.
If built ideally, the team should have a GC contender, some two or three decent climbers, a good time-trialist, a sprinter and some domestiques.
Of course, most cycling races are not grand tours, so the classics are just every man for himself, for the most part.
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Cycling is a team sport, but there is a "first among equals/captain" around whom the team revolves. The team, usually is built to support a GC contender.
If built ideally, the team should have a GC contender, some two or three decent climbers, a good time-trialist, a sprinter and some domestiques.
Of course, most cycling races are not grand tours, so the classics are just every man for himself, for the most part.
If built ideally, the team should have a GC contender, some two or three decent climbers, a good time-trialist, a sprinter and some domestiques.
Of course, most cycling races are not grand tours, so the classics are just every man for himself, for the most part.
If it were every man for himself the marking riders would ahve tried working with him a little, if they did not they had no chance. But a teammate would have a very good chance.
Again there is teamwork and team tactics other than ride in front and help a single designated rider.
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The OP should observe that pro cycling is not comprised of 1 race called the Tour de France. Pro cycling encompasses the calendar months of Feb through October, in which there are hundreds of races.
In those races, a rider has to try and win, and if he is not trying to win, he is trying to survive. There is no such thing as a "lead out train" in Paris-Roubaix. Just the thought makes me laugh. Zing.
In those races, a rider has to try and win, and if he is not trying to win, he is trying to survive. There is no such thing as a "lead out train" in Paris-Roubaix. Just the thought makes me laugh. Zing.
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The OP should observe that pro cycling is not comprised of 1 race called the Tour de France. Pro cycling encompasses the calendar months of Feb through October, in which there are hundreds of races.
In those races, a rider has to try and win, and if he is not trying to win, he is trying to survive. There is no such thing as a "lead out train" in Paris-Roubaix. Just the thought makes me laugh. Zing.
In those races, a rider has to try and win, and if he is not trying to win, he is trying to survive. There is no such thing as a "lead out train" in Paris-Roubaix. Just the thought makes me laugh. Zing.
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OP here - Thanks for the direct answers to my Q's, Howzit. And thank you all for an entertaining thread of responses.
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Cycling is a team sport primarly because riding in a group and being protected by others consumes so much less energy than riding on your own that teams make sense. This is why the individual time trial is called the race of truth. There is no peleton to hide in. Teams are used because its easier for sponsors and managers to have an internchangeable roster of riders so they can allow for different terrain, injuries and race types.
WRT the Cavendish issue: I think he deserves what he gets but it is true that he is doing a very special kind of ride which only occurs in the last 500m of a race. The rest of the time, he's invisible. Same goes for pretty much all specialist sprinters. What makes for an interesting side note is how much the sprinters struggle (except Thor & Phil Gil) to get over the mountains. Cav is particularly bad at this and only made the time cut-off at the last Pyrenees stage by a minute reportedly. Bernie Eisel gets him there but I suspect HTC are probably quite worried that he'll make the cut-offs through the Alpine stages. Can't collect the green jersey in Paris if you don't make the cut-offs.
WRT the Cavendish issue: I think he deserves what he gets but it is true that he is doing a very special kind of ride which only occurs in the last 500m of a race. The rest of the time, he's invisible. Same goes for pretty much all specialist sprinters. What makes for an interesting side note is how much the sprinters struggle (except Thor & Phil Gil) to get over the mountains. Cav is particularly bad at this and only made the time cut-off at the last Pyrenees stage by a minute reportedly. Bernie Eisel gets him there but I suspect HTC are probably quite worried that he'll make the cut-offs through the Alpine stages. Can't collect the green jersey in Paris if you don't make the cut-offs.
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Cycling is a team sport primarly because riding in a group and being protected by others consumes so much less energy than riding on your own that teams make sense. This is why the individual time trial is called the race of truth. There is no peleton to hide in. Teams are used because its easier for sponsors and managers to have an internchangeable roster of riders so they can allow for different terrain, injuries and race types.
WRT the Cavendish issue: I think he deserves what he gets but it is true that he is doing a very special kind of ride which only occurs in the last 500m of a race. The rest of the time, he's invisible. Same goes for pretty much all specialist sprinters. What makes for an interesting side note is how much the sprinters struggle (except Thor & Phil Gil) to get over the mountains. Cav is particularly bad at this and only made the time cut-off at the last Pyrenees stage by a minute reportedly. Bernie Eisel gets him there but I suspect HTC are probably quite worried that he'll make the cut-offs through the Alpine stages. Can't collect the green jersey in Paris if you don't make the cut-offs.
WRT the Cavendish issue: I think he deserves what he gets but it is true that he is doing a very special kind of ride which only occurs in the last 500m of a race. The rest of the time, he's invisible. Same goes for pretty much all specialist sprinters. What makes for an interesting side note is how much the sprinters struggle (except Thor & Phil Gil) to get over the mountains. Cav is particularly bad at this and only made the time cut-off at the last Pyrenees stage by a minute reportedly. Bernie Eisel gets him there but I suspect HTC are probably quite worried that he'll make the cut-offs through the Alpine stages. Can't collect the green jersey in Paris if you don't make the cut-offs.
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I'm sure there are failures on time that get burried, if a rider is well off the back and outside of the time he is apt to abandon, esp if he is off early in a mountian stage.
Oops I missed the 'NOT'.
Still until fairly recently Green Jersey leaders woudl routinely drop out when the mountians came. I think the TDF organizers deserve soem credit for that trend changing. They have made winninghte final stage in Paris into a prize sought by sprinters. sought enough that they will drag themfelfs over 4 mountian stages just for a chance at that prize (and nothign else).
Last edited by Keith99; 07-19-11 at 12:40 PM.
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I'm sure it has. Djamolidine Abdoujaparov was injured in final sprint in Paris one year and had to limp across the line. He was close enough that the 1 Km rule came into account so he had no time worries. He was badly enough injured that it was entirely possible he would no tbe able to limp those last 100-200 meters.
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OP, Howzit has a point when he says that team tactics are less important in one-day races than in the TdF. But he's wrong to suggest that it is only in the TdF that cycling is a team sport. In any multi-day stage race of any importance the big teams will pick a squad to help their leader. So we saw Boasson Hagen and others working for Wiggins in the Dauphine, for example, and HTC working for Tony Martin in Paris-Nice.
As for Cavendish, he arouses strong feelings in some people for some reason. As jrennie has said above, Cavendish is doing his job. He's very good at it. It would be stupid for him to do as some would like, and waste his energy by making attacks or going faster than necessary in the mountains. He does what is necessary to conserve himself for the sprints. Interestingly, today he finished pretty high up (despite his supposed inability to climb) because until quite late in the stage there was a danger that Gilbert or Rojas might have gained significant points, and he needed to be in a position to respond.
As for Cavendish, he arouses strong feelings in some people for some reason. As jrennie has said above, Cavendish is doing his job. He's very good at it. It would be stupid for him to do as some would like, and waste his energy by making attacks or going faster than necessary in the mountains. He does what is necessary to conserve himself for the sprints. Interestingly, today he finished pretty high up (despite his supposed inability to climb) because until quite late in the stage there was a danger that Gilbert or Rojas might have gained significant points, and he needed to be in a position to respond.
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True.
Incorrect, shelter from any rider is the same regardless of team kit color. Wind does not segregate so that you are only sheltered just because its a team mate sheltering you. You do not need a team to reep the benefits of rider/wind protection. Its only easier in the sense that there is less jostling around for position if you are following a row of team mates. So no; cycling is not primarily a team sport because you can get shelter from the wind from a team mate.
Correct, and this contradicts your statement of why you think cycling is a team sport from your first sentence.
Exactly right. And this is the reasons teams exist, not because cycling is a team sport, now you are thinking. Think "squad" and not "team."
Correct, and hence the disgust in his quest for the green jersey, thats not giving it honor.
And hence this is indicative that he held onto the team car.
And hence this is indicative that he held onto the team car.
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