LemondFanForeve

Exactly right. Thats the defense he keeps using though, sadly.

Rodimus_Prime

There is no PROOF he ever doped. As far as not being any good I dunno World Champ at 21, 2 stages of the tour, couple classics wins, thats more than most riders do before age 25. Cancer made him lighter in his upper body. Being lighter you become a better climber instantly even if your not any stronger at all in the legs. Look at Thor this year, he lost some weight and now he can climb, this isnt something new in Cycling.

Every single one of the supposed teammates that claim to have saw him taking drugs are all convicted dopers that served 2 year bans. I think Tyler Hamilton is bitter that even while doping he still couldn't beat Armstrong.

The guy is a natural Athlete, pure and simple he has a heart and lungs with greater abilities than most others. Obviously theres testing for EPO in 2009, explain then why he was able to manage a podium finish in the tour at 37 years of age, he never failed a test in that stricter era either.

Everyone always says Eddy Merckx is so great, he tested positive 4 times!!!!!!!!!!!!

Commodus

You must be new here.

Peaty Laphroaig

Or did he? Do you remember how **** he rode through most of the 1989 Giro. Was getting dropped by sprinters in the mountains from what I recall and then end up on the podium in the final time trial? He later goes on to win Le Tour and the Worlds all in the short span of a few months. He even made mention of quitting as he was riding so poorly. Low and behold he throws some rubbish out there about iron deficiencies and taking vitamin B12 and some shots and then goes on that brilliant streak of results? I am not a physician but I do know from a friends experience that treatment for anemia takes a whole hell of a lot longer to turn around than a few months let alone overnight in the Giro. Lemond beat some tremendous riders that were admitted dopers yet somehow he was all natural talent? Nope, not buying it.

Did Lance dope? Sure, why should he have been any different than his contemporaries. Was he still head and shoulders more talented than virtually everyone he rode against (all dopers as well)? No question. You also mention that he'll likely get popped for fraud against the USPS. With the USPS's history of losing money and mismanagement it will be really hard to prove that he intentionally attempted to defraud anyone.

Really? There is some dumb stuff posted on the internet but this might be amongst the dumbest. Read the snippet I quoted back to yourself a few times and see if you can figure it out.

LemondFanForeve

Beat me to it.......

Peaty Laphroaig

I am willing to bet that if the admin or moderators of this site did an IP match we'd find out that one is the sock and the other the sock master. If I'm wrong then I think these two found each others soul mate.

I did a search of threads, did this really need to be started or couldn't one of the other numerous and painful threads have been bumped?

LemondFanForeve

Ill ask again....post any of this supposed "proof" about Lemond? Any former teammates throw him under the bus, and prove that he doped? What you're saying is all hearsay, just like all the supposed "proof" needed to show LA doped. Have ANY of his contemporaries, come out(20+ yrs later) and accused him of doping, or admitted to seeing him doping? Feel free to post any of that "proof" so, we can see it once and for all?

If he were "head and shoulders better than his contemporaries" as you mention, there'd be no need for him to dope, right? he'd just need his natural, god given abilities to beat them right? no need for doping or cheating, regardless of how 'cool", or "in" it was @ the time. Lance is a cheater plain and simple, and bragged about it for years. IMO, that doesnt mean he was a "better rider than his contemporaries", it means, he cheated to try to level the playing field for himself, and get an edge on everyone, thats selfishness. OTHERS doping/ who did what/etc, has nothing to do with Armstrong doping, you've just admitted that he did, so why try to continue making a case for him, that he didnt? He proved he couldnt win with his natural abilities. Even so, his denials have only lead to more speculation.

Just admit it and move on, but he cant. I suspect, once the grand jury investigation is finished, and he's found guilty, only then will we get the truth from him?


Your blatant overlooking of what YOUVE actually posted, trumps anything Ive done here. Look in the mirror my friend, you're doing exactly what you claim Ive done. Youve admitted he doped, then tried to go back, and say "well if his contemporaries did it too"...doesnt matter...he doped. I dont give a crap about his contemporaries.........no one put a gun to Lance's head and forced him to dope did they? no sir, he did it on his own, because he wanted that edge, that qucik fix, to get him over the hump, thats cheating, in EVERY sense of the word.

LemondFanForeve

Apparently, you felt the need to respond, so I guess youve answered your own question, right? it's all been covered already, you seemed to have been the last to the party? had you checked like you claim, you wouldve seen that this topic hasd been covered numerous times.

Im not a "sock" nor do I know "bellweatherman" personally. We just seem to have the same opinions on Lance. Truth be told, I thought the post BWM posted, was spot on, and think it should be in contention for POTY. I agree with BWM's posts, just like he(and a few others) do mine as well... this is a message board, people differ on things all the time, dont beat yourself up over it, not worth it.

The mods can do all the IP checks they want, we're 2 different people, they know that.

Peaty Laphroaig

Not good at the quoting thing are you?

That was pretty much my point yet you were so preoccupied with disdain for a guy you'll never meet that it went right over your head.

I'm not trying to make any case ffs, they all doped including Greg.

Why does it really matter? What part of your life will be positively impacted by his being found guilty? What if Novitzky doesn't get the indictment for whatever reason, will you sulk or cry? Maybe make some ranting posts about how Armstrong bought off the Feds.......

For starters, I am not your friend In addition to spelling not being amongst your strong points, neither is reading comprehension. They all doped, it really doesn't matter. The sport has been marginalized to dope for so long that it will never be eradicated. Cycling will always have dope hence dopers which probably make up more of the pro riders than your head can get wrapped around are all on a level playing field. For those that actually don't dope, kudos to them for doing the honorable thing but honor doesn't fund your retirement.

LemondFanForeve

What issues did you have with my quoting?

What went over my head exactly? you're in a long line of "yeah, but Lemond doped too blah blah blah" folks, who cant give any credible proof, no more than anyone else can about Armstrong. BUT< that said, Lemond isnt under grand jury investigation for doping, there's NEVER been any teammates coming out about Lemond, not now, not then, not ever(and never will I guess). It's a "strawmans arguement" to ALWAYS try to use Lemond for an example, to try to counteract all the negative publicity Armstrong receives? It makes people look even worse, whenever they try using Lemond's name in the same sentence as "doping", but(and Im using a quote from you here) that apparently goes over EVERYONE'S head? Lemond is the "pro Lance" whipping boy, just as you, and others claim Armstrong is ours? Except, Our "whipping boy" has had NUMEROUS folks/articles/innuendo/rumors/etc about him doping, and the latter has not. Hell, even YOU admitted he doped(go back and look, you said it yourself). You're arguing about something you agree with? I dont understand the logic there.


Once again(this about the 8th time Ive asked for it); What "Proof" (in ANY form, from any credible person) does anyone have that Lemond "doped"?

"They all" didnt dope, thats a huge assumption, and you cant base it on anything. Hinault didnt dope, Lemond, Hampsten, Kelly,Steve Bauer, etc.......just named a bunch of guys who never did, so your "they all" arguement, isn't an arguement at all, b/c it's not FACTUAL. Infact, Steve Bauer has a FB page, you should go there, and ask him if he doped on his FB page, see what his response is(if at all)?

Also, with your "everyone doped" incorrect statement, you're also claiming that current riders Cadel Evans, Levi, and others have all doped too? since THEY'RE part of the "all doped" arguement, you're trying to make? So, by your baseless assumption that:a'' riders dope" then we should all expect Cadel to get his TDF title stripped from him, anytime now, since he doped too, according to you?

You are though(trying to make a big deal about it), you're trying to every time you respond to a post like this? you ARE "trying to make a case", or else, you wouldnt respond?


I guess you should ask yourself this very same question? if it "doesnt matter", you sure seemed to make it matter, when you responded to a pretty much otherwise dead thread? I wont sulk or cry if Armstrong is found guilty, I wont be surprised, I will get a bit of an "I told you so" attitude, but, keep in mind, this whole thing has panned out to what it has become here and in the media, why? Because LA cant seem to let it die down with his evasive non answers. Like Ive maintained from the start, just admit it and move on, it saves a whole lot of BS here, and elsewhere. If you have nothing to hide, and you've done nothing wrong, both things he still maintains, then why is there an on going grand jury investigation trying to bust you? Apparently, the govt doesnt believe Lance's story(and others dont either), thats why it keeps getting dragged out.

Pardon me for trying to be friendly in this debate, shame on me.

Once AGAIN, baseless assumptions that "all riders doped"... which is not true, nor factual. Lemond/Hinault, and the small list of riders I mentioned(and Im sure many more not mentioned) didnt dope. Apparently, YOUR "reading comprehension skills" need working on instead of mine? I dont recall EVER reading ANYTHING about "all riders doping", and certainly a guy such as Hinault, someone wouldve by now busted on him for doping, in this day and age right?

You're more delusional than you claim I am.......ok champ, keep thinking that way.

I fondly remember so many shooting down Jose Canseco's claims of doping too in MLB, in the end, he turned out to be correct, and look @ the outcome. Some of the dopers, wont go into the HOF now because of it. Canseco was vindicated when it did come out on so many. I suspect Lemond will come out of it, looking like Canseco(as in being right all along)? I also think the outcome will be the same. Begs the question, was it really all worth it?

Hezz

Thanks for the post. This is an interesting addition to my knowledge of the Armstrong doping saga. After reading and researching everything I could study on the topic of doping and Armstrong, I came to the conclusion a couple of years ago that the weight of the evidence strongly supports the Armstrong doping theory.

Still, I have always felt that Lance had an additional trump card that the other members of the peloton did not have. Perhaps this RSR13 stuff was it. We have good evidence that Lance was using PED before his cancer and he was a good racer but not one who anyone thought could win the TDF. He was successful but not so much of a stand out to seem super human except on rare occasions.

My speculation follows:

So Lance being the competitive type that he is when he gets cancer goes everywhere to find the best cancer doctors in the nation. The reality is that the underworld powers also seek out the brightest and the best to be part of their secret and often classified or covered up research. So there is some possibility that Lance connected himself unwittingly to people and powers that would want to use him as a live guinea pig. And who easier to blackmail than an obsessed athlete who will do anything to win and now has admitted to his doctors that he has been using PED's. He might die anyway so if the testing goes badly not many inquiries may follow.

What better person to test out some new super drug on humans for development of a new cancer super drug. So they treat Lance. He may not even have been aware what he was taking. Lance comes back and thinks he can race again but realizes he needs the best PED program and coaching that exists to be competitive and to stay healthy. He cannot do the self administered program he used to do which may have contributed to his cancer. He finds the greatest PED doctor and coach in the world. Now if Fararri is the best PED doctor in the world what is the chance that he is not a compromised individual working for both athletes and covert powers behind the scenes. Lance is now finding great improvements following Fararri and he thinks it is all his own and Fararri's cunning but he does not even realize that he is being played like a marionette. You see, anyone as ambitious as Lance can be easily played. Just like any corrupt politition. Lance wins too convincingly until his last two years even against guys who are also doping and working with Fararri. Yes, he has the perfect drive and good genes. But he also had massive cancer and two rounds of chemotherapy.

Once Lance starts winning big he becomes an icon and a money maker for the industry. He is protected both by big bike money and by big pharma money who have a stake in maintaining what is going on. Trouble is when you work for certain powers they may want to use you after you retire. For Lance he got a bit of feeling powerful and important. A celebrity if you will and when he retired he thought about running for political office. And what a perfect poster boy who could be controlled. With everything he had been doing he could be blackmailed into doing whatever was wanted. Think about it. He was the perfect political tool.

Problem was, he got a little taste of it and didn't want to dance to that tune. So the secret powers that be decide to discredit him and make his life miserable through the FDA. Now seriously, the FDA is nothing but a controlled arm of big pharma. They don't care who uses PED's unless they are loosing profit somewhere by having blackmarket labs copy their drugs. I think they went after Armstrong to punish him because they couldn't completely control him.

So Armstrong goes back to cycling for the same reason he got into it in the first place. It was his outlet for a crazy world. Trying to save himself with cycling. Now his secret PED's are no longer coming and he really would like to know himself if he could have rode with the guys with just the usual PED's that everyone has. He found out that he couldn't. At least not on a consistent basis after three years off.

Also, I have a theory on how he could go 7 years without a serious crash or hardly any crashes for that matter. The PED's he was taking improved his concentration and made him more fresh. His brain was functioning at a higher level. That combined with good tactics and a strong team kept him out of danger.

LemondFanForeve

Excellent, inforrmative post, that sheds more light on the topic. May I ask what exactly is RSR13, & what does it do for the body? Is this an advantage he had over other riders? Also, this definitely proves that at the very least, more and more cupboards are being cleaned out &info is coming out from all over the place, which seems to shed light on his involvement, in the situation.

18hockey

What is so informative and shedding light on the topic? All he did was post a theory on what he thinks might have gone on.

harlond

There was that Bruyneel guy.