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How many books will Tyler sell?

Old 09-07-12, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Exit3 View Post
So if they were all doping, doesn't that make Lance the winner of all those races?
That is the level playing field myth... if they were all doping, then he beat them fair and square. According to a review in Outside magazine, the book demolishes that myth.

In this sense, the book destroys another myth: that everyone was doing it, so Armstrong was, in a weird way, just competing on a level playing field. There was no level playing field. With his connections to Michele Ferrari, the best dishonest doctor in the business, Armstrong was always “two years ahead of what everybody else was doing,” Hamilton writes. Even on the Postal squad there was a pecking order. Armstrong got the superior treatments.
From what I can tell, Armstrong parlayed the good will and popularity he achieved from surviving cancer into lucrative sponsorships (e.g., Nike, Trek) that paid for the best cheating money could buy, and his competition couldn't afford. Does that sound fair to you?
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Old 09-07-12, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Exit3 View Post
So if they were all doping, doesn't that make Lance the winner of all those races?
Not at all. As the books points out, it only proves that he had the best doping regimen and his body responded well to the regimen. But more importantly, it forces out the gifted riders that refused to be a part of the game. The book gives an example of one good rider who was complaining about doping. The other riders ostracised him and refused to ride with him. He dropped out of the race. There is no way to justify this, or permit it.
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Old 09-08-12, 06:19 PM
  #28  
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Didn't Floyd Landis write an entire book detailing how he won the Tour fair and square? Anyone can claim they've seen cetain things, blah blah, blah. Lance passed all his drug tests and that's good enough with me.

PEACEOUT
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Old 09-08-12, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Exit3 View Post
Didn't Floyd Landis write an entire book detailing how he won the Tour fair and square? Anyone can claim they've seen cetain things, blah blah, blah. Lance passed all his drug tests and that's good enough with me.

PEACEOUT
It shouldn't be, for one big reason---he didn't actually pass "all his drug tests".
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Old 09-09-12, 09:17 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Exit3 View Post
Didn't Floyd Landis write an entire book detailing how he won the Tour fair and square?
Yes, but that unbelievable account of Floyd's wasn't written by a respected writer like Dan Coyle who says he verified it with nine other riders.

Anyone can claim they've seen cetain things, blah blah, blah.
But no one can claim they've seen certain things and have it consistently verified with many others, unless they actually saw those things.

Lance passed all his drug tests and that's good enough with me.
That's a ridiculously low standard. Is the fact that Marion Jones passed hundreds of drugs tests without ever failing one good enough for you? How about Jan Ullrich doing the same thing?

Never mind that Armstrong did fail several drugs tests, but "managed" to not be sanctioned for them one way or another. The UCI's role is protecting Armstrong is a big part of this story.
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Old 09-09-12, 09:23 AM
  #31  
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At this point its silly to try and convince people that don't want to see the truth. I've been an impartial fence sitter for years (extremely skeptical of all parties), and only in the last few weeks has it become totally clear, from a public standpoint, that they were all doping. I was really hesitant to answer questions to my non-cycling friends about Lance, because I wasn't 100% sure of anything. Now it is finally all out there and from a public standpoint, looking at all the information, it is obvious.

My point is this, if people like Exit3 want to bury their heads in the sand, there's nothing that can be said to convince them. Oh well.
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Old 09-09-12, 11:03 AM
  #32  
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Considering this thread has barely made it to page 2, I think it's obvious that people in general just don't care.

Everyone long ago concluded that the entire peleton was doping in the 90s (before Armstrong's return) as well as the first part of the 2000s. Hamilton's book reveals that Lance was a bigger cheater than the rest. Okay, but everyone else was still cheating.

A muscular bald guy who once drag raced import cars in the 2000s and also fought/died in WW2 once said:

"It doesn't matter if you dope and win by an inch or a mile. Cheating is cheating". ***



*** I'm not 100% sure on the accuracy of that quote. You can confirm it yourself.


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Old 09-09-12, 12:12 PM
  #33  
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I think you may be placing a level of interest in the pro cycling forum that may not actually exist. Since there's a similar thread in several forums, multiple message boards, and all over Facebook I'd suggest that there is indeed lots of interest in this
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Old 09-09-12, 08:13 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by bikepro View Post
Not at all. As the books points out, it only proves that he had the best doping regimen and his body responded well to the regimen. But more importantly, it forces out the gifted riders that refused to be a part of the game. The book gives an example of one good rider who was complaining about doping. The other riders ostracised him and refused to ride with him. He dropped out of the race. There is no way to justify this, or permit it.
Yes. And as has been pointed out elsewhere, it trickles down the ranks. Clean riders never get on the big teams to start with, and ambitious cat 1 riders will feel pressured to dope to get to the next level etc...

Greg Lemond might have won a couple more Tours de France if doping hadn't taken over big time, so even really top riders got shut out of the podium.

Originally Posted by TommyL View Post
At this point its silly to try and convince people that don't want to see the truth. I've been an impartial fence sitter for years (extremely skeptical of all parties), and only in the last few weeks has it become totally clear, from a public standpoint, that they were all doping. I was really hesitant to answer questions to my non-cycling friends about Lance, because I wasn't 100% sure of anything. Now it is finally all out there and from a public standpoint, looking at all the information, it is obvious.

My point is this, if people like Exit3 want to bury their heads in the sand, there's nothing that can be said to convince them. Oh well.
True. Some people take longer to open their eyes than others. Most do eventually.
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Old 09-11-12, 09:55 PM
  #35  
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I read it over three days and one of the accusations that surprised and offended me the
most was the one that Armstrong "ratted" Hamilton out to the UCI in the spring of '04.
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Old 09-12-12, 01:11 PM
  #36  
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I finished the book yesterday. Was interesting, even without if you removed the Armstrong stuff, it was still an interesting view of cycling from Hamilton's eyes.

The thing I found suprising was Hamilton testing positive for having someone else's blood in his system. He didn't believe that was possible (though later he admitted his doctor was a bit of a quack and it could have happened), and then you look at Floyd Landis who still claims he wasn't using T, which is what the UCI popped him for.

Either they both don't want to admit they were caught cheating, but don't mind admitting cheating, or there really is something weird going on with the UCI and testing. You combine that with the claim that Armstrong turned Hamilton into the UCI and it makes you just shake your head. How many people ever tested positive while on an Armstrong team? How many people tested positive the year or second year after leaving an Armstrong team?

Professional cycling is an amazing sport, but it is also a sport that I wouldn't want anyone I actually cared about to have anything to do with.
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Old 09-12-12, 01:34 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
Yes. And as has been pointed out elsewhere, it trickles down the ranks. Clean riders never get on the big teams to start with, and ambitious cat 1 riders will feel pressured to dope to get to the next level etc...

Greg Lemond might have won a couple more Tours de France if doping hadn't taken over big time, so even really top riders got shut out of the podium.



True. Some people take longer to open their eyes than others. Most do eventually.
But people pretending to be blind will NEVER be able to see!
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Old 09-12-12, 01:44 PM
  #38  
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Michael Shermer's review: http://www.skepticblog.org/2012/09/1...-immoral-acts/
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Old 09-12-12, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Shimagnolo View Post
Step 1. Buy book.
Step 2. Read book.
Step 3. Form your own opinion.
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Old 09-12-12, 02:42 PM
  #40  
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No matter what the bitter, resentful, pissant little has-beens like Tyler and Floyd and Frankie and whoever say(the list is endless), and no matter how much money they make dredging up the sort of past we'd all like to forget, cycling is cleaner now. Let's move forward.

Golly though, old Lance sure could make those pedals move around, couldn't he?
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Old 09-12-12, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Thulsadoom View Post
No matter what the bitter, resentful, pissant little has-beens like Tyler and Floyd and Frankie and whoever say(the list is endless), and no matter how much money they make dredging up the sort of past we'd all like to forget, cycling is cleaner now. Let's move forward.

Golly though, old Lance sure could make those pedals move around, couldn't he?
You seem grumpy...relax, you can always tell yourself, "well he sure won those Tours in my mind!!"

Even if he really didn't.
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Old 09-12-12, 04:23 PM
  #42  
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I bought one. Very interesting read.
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Old 09-12-12, 04:34 PM
  #43  
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I've read the book, finised i last night. Now I never really started following pro cyclng until recently, but I found the book both interesting and depressing. I've never even heard of some of the pro's in the book. Read about Pantini, then took some time doing a little research on him. Sobering. I would guess this book will do well, it certainly paints Armstrong in a very negative light, not just doping, but as a person in general. Then again, it's only one man's opinoin, we all have to make up our own minds.
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Old 09-12-12, 05:02 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Thulsadoom View Post
No matter what the bitter, resentful, pissant little has-beens like Tyler and Floyd and Frankie and whoever say(the list is endless), and no matter how much money they make dredging up the sort of past we'd all like to forget, cycling is cleaner now.
Cycling is perhaps a little cleaner now ..... now that Lance has been stripped of his fraudulent "victories". It will be even cleaner if and when he loses civil actions and is forced to repay some of the money that he obtained so dishonestly. The man is a con artist of historic proportions.
You say you'd like to forget the past. An understandable feeling and I don't envy you your situation. But that won't be possible until you truly understand what happened in the past. You can't forget something about which you are ignorant.
I just finished the book and recommend it to others. It contains a large number of details concerning the methods that were used to obtain, distribute and administer the drugs and blood samples, both by USPS as a team and later by individual cyclists acting more independently. It will be interesting to see the extent to which these details are substantiated in a future USADA report or other investigations. In the meanwhile Tyler comes across as highly credible, and Lance seems more and more desperate in his denials.
If LA believes that he has nothing to lose with his present strategy he is very much mistaken. Better to admit to what most impartial observers have already concluded, take your hits and move on with the charitable work as much as that is possible.

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Old 09-12-12, 06:35 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by ChasH View Post
Cycling is perhaps a little cleaner now ..... now that Lance has been stripped of his fraudulent "victories". It will be even cleaner if and when he loses civil actions and is forced to repay some of the money that he obtained so dishonestly. The man is a con artist of historic proportions.
You say you'd like to forget the past. An understandable feeling and I don't envy you your situation. But that won't be possible until you truly understand what happened in the past. You can't forget something about which you are ignorant.
I just finished the book and recommend it to others. It contains a large number of details concerning the methods that were used to obtain, distribute and administer the drugs and blood samples, both by USPS as a team and later by individual cyclists acting more independently. It will be interesting to see the extent to which these details are substantiated in a future USADA report or other investigations. In the meanwhile Tyler comes across as highly credible, and Lance seems more and more desperate in his denials.
If LA believes that he has nothing to lose with his present strategy he is very much mistaken. Better to admit to what most impartial observers have already concluded, take your hits and move on with the charitable work as much as that is possible.
Lance will take this lie to the grave. If he confesses, the few sponsors he has will abandon him and his credibility will be so bad that Livestrong may collapse. He could resign from Livestrong and distance himself, unfortunately, Livestrong depends on Lance. When Bruyneel goes to arbitration, the rest of USADA's evidence will be public. Lance's image will take another hit. Of course, there are some that will continue supporting him even if he appeared on Leno with an EPO hypo in his arm.
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Old 09-13-12, 09:53 AM
  #46  
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Bruyneel won't go to arbitration. Lance can support him until the end of time in the lifestyle he's accustomed to.
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Old 09-13-12, 01:46 PM
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He better hope for big book sales since he spent so much money defending his innocence and trying to keep his olympic gold medal.
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Old 09-14-12, 09:46 AM
  #48  
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Reading the book, I expected the so-called level playing field myth to be destroyed, I don't
think Coyle even chipped away at it. And if I'm not mistaken, Hamilton himself said something
to the effect of the other riders having the same opportunities he did.
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Old 09-14-12, 12:02 PM
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Crap I bought one. Interesting read though. I went into it thinking it would be a bunch of bull, but Doyle has made it sound very convincing.
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Old 09-14-12, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
Reading the book, I expected the so-called level playing field myth to be destroyed, I don't
think Coyle even chipped away at it. And if I'm not mistaken, Hamilton himself said something
to the effect of the other riders having the same opportunities he did.


They addressed several times how taking EPO didn't level the playing field. They even used one of their teammates who had a high hematocrit level naturally (47 I believe) and how taking EPO helped him such a smaller percentage than those with lower levels. They addressed it early on when he first took EPO and then again much later after he had left Postal Service and he was trying to figure out what Armstrong was doing to be so strong for the Tour but so weak earlier in the year.

I remember, off the top of my head, a line something like "EPO didn't level the playing field, it simply shifted the playing field to some other less meaningful measure"
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