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A decade of dopers.........

Old 10-15-12, 03:46 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
I just came across this gem from August:

Lance Armstrong: Was He Doping or Experimenting with Science?

http://ideas.time.com/2012/08/27/lan...#ixzz29KSAP6WG
John has been taking a bit of a beating on NYvelocity amongst other places. Including my FB wall.
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Old 10-15-12, 04:35 AM
  #102  
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I guess I'm biased but I believe that Cadel was clean simply because of the way he suffered. The drugs helped riders recover and the day after an impossible mountain top finnish they were at it again the next day.

Anthony
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Old 10-15-12, 05:02 AM
  #103  
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Sorry folks. We've been instructed to clean up the forum and merge a bunch of threads.
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Old 10-15-12, 05:21 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by alpha_bravo View Post
If you draw the line around simply the doping, I agree with Pcad's thesis completely. He did what he had to do and leveled the playing field.

However, what really surprised me was about the USADA report was just how vindictive and ruthless Armstrong was (and likely still is) to anyone who threatened to shatter his glass house. We all know about Frankie and Betsy Andreau (whom I probably feel worst for), Emma O'Riley, Landis, Hamilton, and others from the past. But hearing that he was threatening Levi last year in retaliation against his testimony (which undoubtedly cost him Levi his job with RadioShack) and the way he routinely thought nothing of destroying those who crossed his path just to preserve his ill gotten gains really disturbed me. No one is vilifying Armstrong in the media, his actions and threats against those who were trying to tell the truth reveal his true colors. These were guys who fought hard for him in each Tour, sacrificing their own ambitions and ultimately selling their souls to his demands. When the time came for them to own up to their own transgressions Armstrong did everything he could to burn them quickly and violently. He could have come out and owned up to things, kept his friends and teammates from having to be in this position. Instead he branded them as liars and did everything in his power to destroy them. His actions really disgust me.

I'm no fan of Lance, but there are two products he's a part owner in which I love to death: Honey Stinger my favorite on bike food and Mellow Johnnys my favorite bike shop in the world. At first when I was hashing this out in my head I could live with it. He doped in an age of dopers, no big deal. However, after reading the USADA report and hearing about the sheer malevolence he exudes, I just don't want to support anyone like that.
Look at it another way....most everyone you mention either directly or indirectly got rich and famous off of their association with Armstrong. Assume the stories are correct and true...if you know that you re about to embark on an illegal path, do you continue to stay there? If you took a job and you learned that a job requirement was doing something illegal, do you stay?

I don't have a ton of sympathy for people that take something they know is wrong, and then are disillusioned when the people that hired them try to protect themselves. That does not make it right. But everyone was in the program with eyes wide open.

As Don Corelone said. ,"You can't ever leave the family."
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Old 10-15-12, 10:12 AM
  #105  
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They missed one of my favorites: http://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Villain.../dp/000726531X
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Old 10-15-12, 01:13 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Of course you leave out that the course was downhill and there was a tailwind. Any reason you failed to mention that?
And I'm pretty sure one of the shortest also. Of course the fastest part is average speed, but being shorter also makes a difference.

Also tatics make a difference. Only Delgado was close enough to pass Lemond even if he totally blew up. That allows for risk taking. And it looks like Delgado did not have a great final TT, which allows even more risk by Lemond without consequence.
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Old 10-16-12, 05:12 AM
  #107  
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K
Originally Posted by alpha_bravo View Post
If you draw the line around simply the doping, I agree with Pcad's thesis completely. He did what he had to do and leveled the playing field.

However, what really surprised me was about the USADA report was just how vindictive and ruthless Armstrong was (and likely still is) to anyone who threatened to shatter his glass house. We all know about Frankie and Betsy Andreau (whom I probably feel worst for), Emma O'Riley, Landis, Hamilton, and others from the past. But hearing that he was threatening Levi last year in retaliation against his testimony (which undoubtedly cost him Levi his job with RadioShack) and the way he routinely thought nothing of destroying those who crossed his path just to preserve his ill gotten gains really disturbed me. No one is vilifying Armstrong in the media, his actions and threats against those who were trying to tell the truth reveal his true colors. These were guys who fought hard for him in each Tour, sacrificing their own ambitions and ultimately selling their souls to his demands. When the time came for them to own up to their own transgressions Armstrong did everything he could to burn them quickly and violently. He could have come out and owned up to things, kept his friends and teammates from having to be in this position. Instead he branded them as liars and did everything in his power to destroy them. His actions really disgust me.

I'm no fan of Lance, but there are two products he's a part owner in which I love to death: Honey Stinger my favorite on bike food and Mellow Johnnys my favorite bike shop in the world. At first when I was hashing this out in my head I could live with it. He doped in an age of dopers, no big deal. However, after reading the USADA report and hearing about the sheer malevolence he exudes, I just don't want to support anyone like that.
So let's pick Honey Stinger, a product I also enjoy mostly because, as the package says I was addicted to stroopwafels when I was in Europe like Lance says. You'd walk away from a product that works for you merely because of the picture on the package and maybe settle for something less effective.

Okey dokey.

Btw when this happens you do not hurt Lance. You hurt the single Mom trying to make ends meet making this stuff evey day, day after day. Lance already has his money.

Do you have any Nike products in your home?

Lol...I have a stroopwafel maker and was making my own before Honey Stinger started their line.

Last edited by roadwarrior; 10-16-12 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 10-16-12, 06:48 AM
  #108  
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No but you hurt Nike and then Nike drops Lance. The insinuation that we should just go status quo when it goes against our beliefs is silly. Nor does the silly P&R bit about hurting single moms carry any weight. When we buy Nike over Reebok we're doing the same thing, it's not like anyone is saying "Lance is evil so **** it, I'm going barefoot."
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Old 10-16-12, 07:29 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
No but you hurt Nike and then Nike drops Lance. The insinuation that we should just go status quo when it goes against our beliefs is silly. Nor does the silly P&R bit about hurting single moms carry any weight. When we buy Nike over Reebok we're doing the same thing, it's not like anyone is saying "Lance is evil so **** it, I'm going barefoot."
If Nike was not hurt by Tiger Woods, it won't be hurt by Lance. And, personally speaking, I use a product because it works, not by the picture on the package.

Lance has his money. The people on the line making the product, now, do not.
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Old 10-16-12, 07:36 AM
  #110  
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You sound kinda powerless and resigned. Products by competing mfgs. work as well.
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Old 10-16-12, 08:39 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
You sound kinda powerless and resigned. Products by competing mfgs. work as well.
But I get most of my stuff for free, so I take what they give me....and I respect your opinion. You are one of the few that actually know what they are talking about. In other words, if I see your handle on a thread, I usually read it.

I still make my own stroopwafels...just not all the time.
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Old 10-16-12, 10:29 AM
  #112  
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Free is good. We're talking apples and oranges. Buying stuff vs. getting stuff is different. I don't have the bank to turn down free stuff.
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Old 10-16-12, 11:07 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by mprelaw View Post
Sure they can. Bob Hayes (in the anchor leg of a relay) and Jimmy Hines both broke the 10 second barrier in the 1960s, when PEDs weren't on anyone's radar in the US.
Steroids, amphetamines, blood transfusions, & various other drugs were used before their time. Steroids were being used by our olympic lifters in the 50's.
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Old 10-16-12, 11:14 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
If Nike was not hurt by Tiger Woods, it won't be hurt by Lance. And, personally speaking, I use a product because it works, not by the picture on the package.

Lance has his money. The people on the line making the product, now, do not.
You are making a political decision every time you buy something...in some ways, this is the only real power left to us. Even if you 'don't care', that's a decision you're making.

I vote with my dollars, and I won't support companies that I find to be morally reprehensible. Of course Nike has been off of every conscientious shopper's list for quite some time now...
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Old 10-16-12, 11:16 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by daveF View Post
Steroids, amphetamines, blood transfusions, & various other drugs were used before their time. Steroids were being used by our olympic lifters in the 50's.
1954 according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_...bolic_steroids
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Old 10-16-12, 11:21 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
To suggest that Lemond's 89 TT is evidence that he doped is a stretch, to say the least.
He beat someone who was an admitted doper. Kind of the same thing with Lance a few years back with lots of speculation about him since everyone he beat turned out to be doping.
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Old 10-16-12, 11:28 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by coppercook62 View Post
What about Sastre
I doubt that many riders on that team were clean. Particularly the ones who were GT contenders. Basso had been there & was using Fuentes services when he was on CSC. Riis was seen going into Fuentes office with Frank Schleck.
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Old 10-16-12, 01:55 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by daveF View Post
He beat someone who was an admitted doper. Kind of the same thing with Lance a few years back with lots of speculation about him since everyone he beat turned out to be doping.
You have to ignore quite a few relevant facts to come to this conclusion.
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Old 10-16-12, 08:23 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
The son of a guy I used to race with died about a year ago. He was 19 and basically had a stroke. His blood was the consistancy of maple syrup at about 10 below zero temp. EPO abuse by people that did not know what they were doing.
Which is why Ferrari should end up in prison, for a long time.

Thank you for relieving the ignorance of far too many people, including cyclists. Time for people to smell the roses. Lethal cardiovascular events including massive strokes are a well-characterized side effect of EPO treatment.

No, ignorance was not - and is not - an excuse.
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Old 10-17-12, 06:39 AM
  #120  
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so much for all that


http://www.businessinsider.com/nike-...strong-2012-10
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Old 10-17-12, 11:26 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
You have to ignore quite a few relevant facts to come to this conclusion.
What are the relevant facts?
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Old 10-17-12, 12:31 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by daveF View Post
What are the relevant facts?
Well, the course and the condition of the course, for one. The way the race unfolded, the physiologies of the two riders, etc. Uh...I guess the answer is "all of the relevant facts".
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Old 10-17-12, 12:51 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
You are making a political decision every time you buy something...in some ways, this is the only real power left to us. Even if you 'don't care', that's a decision you're making.

I vote with my dollars, and I won't support companies that I find to be morally reprehensible. Of course Nike has been off of every conscientious shopper's list for quite some time now...
Agreed, and with Honey Stinger, SRAM, and FRS Armstrong is not just and endorsed athlete, he is a partial owner. Every purchase you make with regards to these products puts dollars in his pockets whether he needs them or not.

Now that Nike has dumped him, I'm very curious to see if any of these companies attempt to buy him out.

For the record I haven't owned or purchased a single piece of Nike gear in the past 10 years or so. I realized quite a while ago that Nike's "R&D" is as much a fraud as Armstrong.
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Old 10-17-12, 02:24 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
Well, the course and the condition of the course, for one. The way the race unfolded, the physiologies of the two riders, etc. Uh...I guess the answer is "all of the relevant facts".
Short course, downhill with a tailwind, and using aero bars when no one else was. I think those are kind of relevant. Plus the fact that he always was a strong TT rider.

Also, he declined to be apprised of his splits, so he could just focus on max effort.

Not everyone who does the ride of his/her life does it doped up. LeMond came out of junior racing as a can't miss talent. No one who knew the pre-cancer Armstrong ever saw him as a GC contender. Maybe a stage winner, maybe a one day classic guy, but didn't have the tools to win a tour. All of a sudden, he reels off 7 in a row, after beating a life-threatening disease.

IMO the best evidence that LeMond rode clean was 1991. And how far and fast he fell once EPO took over the peloton. Early yellow jersey in 1991, and cracks like an egg in the mountains where the EPO users leave him sucking ass. Winds up 7th. And never finishes another TdF. In the space of 3 years he goes from maillot jaune to a guy who drops out 3 places from dead-assed last. Yeah, he doped. Right.

Yeah, he's bitter. Loses two years to a hunting accident, and watches dopers end his career prematurely. I'd be bitter, too.

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Old 10-17-12, 07:18 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by surgeonstone View Post
Yes, if they all are doing it it is still cheating. Sad spectacle. The reality is my esteem of those who have fessed up has risen, even for Floyd, while my thoughts of lance have evaporated to the conclusion that he is simply a bully, and like all bullies, a coward at heart.
Indeed!!
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