Is Armstrong the biggest ass in the history of Professional Cycling?
10-13-12, 10:19 AM
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That's easy...because association with Lance was shining their star as well...until that changed. Either Lance's demands were too great...perhaps including personal moral compromise...or Lance's declining performance near retirement no longer made association with him worth it. So the dynamic changed. Plus...many live in denial about others...hoping for the good. Sometimes it doesn't come and they leave.
10-13-12, 10:33 AM
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I'm sure that Lance is a bit of an SOB, yes. Let he who is without sin...and all that.
I'm also certain that things are being a bit "blown up" right now. Don't believe everything you read or hear while everyone is jumping on the bandwagon wanting to "reveal" how Lance Armstrong is the anti-christ. I would imagine that in a couple of years all the people who are now denouncing Lance will probably have mellowed and will speak fondly of Lance. It's just that it's currently cool to beat him to death.
Lance has faults and has made mistakes. He's also one of the greatest athletes of all time and strikes me as a basically good guy at heart. I'm not falling for all the BS.
I'm also certain that things are being a bit "blown up" right now. Don't believe everything you read or hear while everyone is jumping on the bandwagon wanting to "reveal" how Lance Armstrong is the anti-christ. I would imagine that in a couple of years all the people who are now denouncing Lance will probably have mellowed and will speak fondly of Lance. It's just that it's currently cool to beat him to death.
Lance has faults and has made mistakes. He's also one of the greatest athletes of all time and strikes me as a basically good guy at heart. I'm not falling for all the BS.
I formed my opinion that was a real f'head while he was still an amateur, because his behavior (e.g. victory celebrations I thought were incredibly disrespectful) when he beat the pros (Oravetz & Bishop). However, my dislike for his public persona does not require that I join, like so many here on this forum who have posted on this tread, in the lynch-mob mentality of LA. Has any one of these champions of all that is fair and just mentioned that Tyler Hamilton will now be the one of three U.S. pro cyclists to make it the TDF podium, and that he accomplished that feat by "cheating"? Has any one of them called to USADA for Hamilton's result to be annulled? Where are the threads or posts after posts by those who live for all that is fair and just demanding that USADA invalidate Hamilton's LBL win and strip him of the feat of being the only rider form the U.S. to win that event?
One does not usually become almost universally hated for no reason; Lance has earned this scorn. And thus, many of his detractors, under the guise of fairness and fair-play, are calling for his head. So yes, he is the biggest ass in pro cycling history. And it primarily for that reason that so many who claim to be about fairness are calling for his titles to be stripped but are so deafly silent of the records of nicer “cheaters."
Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 10-13-12 at 11:15 AM.
10-13-12, 11:24 AM
#53
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There have been stories about Lance turning on people for at least a decade. Just check the history with Betsy Andreau or that dude who worked for him. Not to mention the rumors he slept with hamilton's wife. There is no body of evidence that exists to indicate that part of this tale is overblown. Hell, Coyle's first book about Armstrong certainly indicated the in or out aspect of knowing Armstrong.
10-13-12, 11:51 AM
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There have been stories about Lance turning on people for at least a decade. Just check the history with Betsy Andreau or that dude who worked for him. Not to mention the rumors he slept with hamilton's wife. There is no body of evidence that exists to indicate that part of this tale is overblown. Hell, Coyle's first book about Armstrong certainly indicated the in or out aspect of knowing Armstrong.
Reading Tyler's book, I saw the same descriptions of Lance turning against longtime friends, that I had read in previous accounts from other people. LA's personality sounds very similar to the stereotypical dictator:
1. Everything must be done *his* way.
2. Periodic purges of the people in the inner circle.
And a really disturbing aspect that Tyler describes is that LA believed that *every* race he entered *belonged* to him, and there was no possibility that anyone else deserved to win it.
Last edited by Shimagnolo; 10-13-12 at 11:55 AM.
10-13-12, 12:54 PM
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One does not usually become almost universally hated for no reason; Lance has earned this scorn. And thus, many of his detractors, under the guise of fairness and fair-play, are calling for his head. So yes, he is the biggest ass in pro cycling history. And it primarily for that reason that so many who claim to be about fairness are calling for his titles to be stripped but are so deafly silent of the records of nicer “cheaters."
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10-13-12, 02:52 PM
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10-13-12, 04:05 PM
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I'm sure things are being "blown up" as well, but just as anyone who is honest can see he was a tremendously gifted athlete (doped or not), anyone honest can also see he was/is a tremendous a'hole--a real d'head. And the thing was/is, he knew and knows it too. He once said in an interview that he doesn't want to be one of those riders who rides around "with a flower in his head" (i.e. admired for his public persona); he said that he just would rather be admired by the public for being the best cyclist/athlete. Unfortunately for him, people tend dislike arrogant pricks, athletically gifted or not. And a lot of people tend to overlook/disregard one's achievements in favor of one's behavior; conversely, people will tend to overlook one's failures/transgressions in favor of one's behavior.
I formed my opinion that was a real f'head while he was still an amateur, because his behavior (e.g. victory celebrations I thought were incredibly disrespectful) when he beat the pros (Oravetz & Bishop). However, my dislike for his public persona does not require that I join, like so many here on this forum who have posted on this tread, in the lynch-mob mentality of LA. Has any one of these champions of all that is fair and just mentioned that Tyler Hamilton will now be the one of three U.S. pro cyclists to make it the TDF podium, and that he accomplished that feat by "cheating"? Has any one of them called to USADA for Hamilton's result to be annulled? Where are the threads or posts after posts by those who live for all that is fair and just demanding that USADA invalidate Hamilton's LBL win and strip him of the feat of being the only rider form the U.S. to win that event?
One does not usually become almost universally hated for no reason; Lance has earned this scorn. And thus, many of his detractors, under the guise of fairness and fair-play, are calling for his head. So yes, he is the biggest ass in pro cycling history. And it primarily for that reason that so many who claim to be about fairness are calling for his titles to be stripped but are so deafly silent of the records of nicer “cheaters."
I formed my opinion that was a real f'head while he was still an amateur, because his behavior (e.g. victory celebrations I thought were incredibly disrespectful) when he beat the pros (Oravetz & Bishop). However, my dislike for his public persona does not require that I join, like so many here on this forum who have posted on this tread, in the lynch-mob mentality of LA. Has any one of these champions of all that is fair and just mentioned that Tyler Hamilton will now be the one of three U.S. pro cyclists to make it the TDF podium, and that he accomplished that feat by "cheating"? Has any one of them called to USADA for Hamilton's result to be annulled? Where are the threads or posts after posts by those who live for all that is fair and just demanding that USADA invalidate Hamilton's LBL win and strip him of the feat of being the only rider form the U.S. to win that event?
One does not usually become almost universally hated for no reason; Lance has earned this scorn. And thus, many of his detractors, under the guise of fairness and fair-play, are calling for his head. So yes, he is the biggest ass in pro cycling history. And it primarily for that reason that so many who claim to be about fairness are calling for his titles to be stripped but are so deafly silent of the records of nicer “cheaters."
I just believe Lance to be a ruthless a-hole which was Merlin's premise I agree with...and Lance is getting his just deserts. The difference between he and Hamilton is....Hamilton admitted cheating and Lance hasn't in spite of copious evidence which would seem to sway the balance of admission but Lance's calculus is he would rather have those wonder and doubt. As discussed, I believe there is a close parallel to Tiger's fall from public grace. You see, both portrayed themselves as paragons of virtue and they turned out to be the polar opposite. That is what is incensing all the fanboys and average Joe who wanted to Lance or Tiger. Hence the outcry most will stomach and reconcile over time but will take a while. As to Hamilton, I believe his titles should be stripped as well. Basically cycling during his era has been exposed as a sham which incenses those of us who love the sport. Now there is another thought about cycling in that era as well. One is Lance is still the greatest cyclist of that era. Yes he cheated but so did many others.No doubt this is how he sleeps at night if he does.
One thing for sure, Lance is a warrior of the nth degree and will weather this in some capacity.
10-13-12, 04:55 PM
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and not for nothing, Lance grew up with a single mom in like a trailer park. I'm not sure how much school he had, but it wasn't much. The idea that he was suddenly going to manifest a level of book smarts and insight into the type of academia that would inherently allow him to rise to the top of whatever he chose is both ridiculous and an insult to those with those types of gifts and dedication to the necessary work. It's as dumb as saying anyone who took EPO could win the Tour.
10-13-12, 05:07 PM
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It's not that I'm saying he's stupid. He's made an empire. But the post I responded listed a host of possible careers he could have excelled in if he just applied himself in that way. I call bull****.
10-13-12, 10:17 PM
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An idea for additionally penalizing dopers. After they have completed their suspension, they have another year of probation. During the probationary period, in addition to being tested before every event or stage they ride in, their bib has an annotation indicating they are on probation for doping -- perhaps a picture of a hypo needle. Thus, everyone watching knows who the ex-dopers are. Oh, and they have to personally pay for their additional testing.
10-13-12, 10:19 PM
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I thought they already had a special jersey for dopers. Its yellow.
10-13-12, 10:38 PM
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What about the Giro, the Vuelta and the other races that don't use yellow? That, and the USADA report shows that it runs, or ran, much deeper than just the leader. I like the jersey of shame idea.
Last edited by bikerjp; 10-14-12 at 10:47 AM. Reason: typo
10-13-12, 11:24 PM
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A couple of differences. For example, I don't hate Lance or anybody really...although I don't know any serial murderers whom I would rate as worse. I just believe Lance to be a ruthless a-hole which was Merlin's premise I agree with...and Lance is getting his just deserts. The difference between he and Hamilton is....Hamilton admitted cheating and Lance hasn't in spite of copious evidence which would seem to sway the balance of admission but Lance's calculus is he would rather have those wonder and doubt. As discussed, I believe there is a close parallel to Tiger's fall from public grace. You see, both portrayed themselves as paragons of virtue and they turned out to be the polar opposite. That is what is incensing all the fanboys and average Joe who wanted to Lance or Tiger. Hence the outcry most will stomach and reconcile over time but will take a while. As to Hamilton, I believe his titles should be stripped as well. Basically cycling during his era has been exposed as a sham which incenses those of us who love the sport. Now there is another thought about cycling in that era as well. One is Lance is still the greatest cyclist of that era. Yes he cheated but so did many others.
No doubt this is how he sleeps at night if he does.
One thing for sure, Lance is a warrior of the nth degree and will weather this in some capacity.
I just believe Lance to be a ruthless a-hole which was Merlin's premise I agree with...and Lance is getting his just deserts. The difference between he and Hamilton is....Hamilton admitted cheating and Lance hasn't in spite of copious evidence which would seem to sway the balance of admission but Lance's calculus is he would rather have those wonder and doubt. As discussed, I believe there is a close parallel to Tiger's fall from public grace. You see, both portrayed themselves as paragons of virtue and they turned out to be the polar opposite. That is what is incensing all the fanboys and average Joe who wanted to Lance or Tiger. Hence the outcry most will stomach and reconcile over time but will take a while. As to Hamilton, I believe his titles should be stripped as well. Basically cycling during his era has been exposed as a sham which incenses those of us who love the sport. Now there is another thought about cycling in that era as well. One is Lance is still the greatest cyclist of that era. Yes he cheated but so did many others.No doubt this is how he sleeps at night if he does.
One thing for sure, Lance is a warrior of the nth degree and will weather this in some capacity.
so as not provide any evidence of doping and not be guilty of perjury. "Cheat," lie about it, reluctantly
testify to someone else's doping (admit your own while doing so) and you get to keep your titles and you
get write and promote a book for profit. The difference, if there is any, is microscopic. TH had/has far more
to gain by "coming clean" than does LA. TH is making a name (as well as a pretty penny) off of LA's back; his
book wouldn't be but for LA. And the idea that he stands, however slight, on some moral or ethical high-ground
compared to LA is just ****ing silly to me.
As to LA and Tiger portraying themselves as paragons of virtue, that's just horse-****. Neither, IMO, did anything
close to that. C'mon now...
10-14-12, 04:35 AM
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If you start dissecting anyones personality, and focus on specific episodes when they are under pressure or not completely in control or naive or swept up in the moment or led down the wrong path, guaranteed they will appear as a horses arse. Every single one of us.
10-14-12, 05:21 AM
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I never thought he was an ass until his comeback in 09 TDF. Everyday at the press conference rolling his eyes and giving that,"I'll bite my lip" BS trying to make Contador look like a jerk for refusing to kiss his or Brunyeel's ass. Actually, that TDF made me a fan of Contador for standing up to LANCE.
10-14-12, 05:25 AM
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Indeed!
Reading Tyler's book, I saw the same descriptions of Lance turning against longtime friends, that I had read in previous accounts from other people. LA's personality sounds very similar to the stereotypical dictator:
1. Everything must be done *his* way.
2. Periodic purges of the people in the inner circle.
And a really disturbing aspect that Tyler describes is that LA believed that *every* race he entered *belonged* to him, and there was no possibility that anyone else deserved to win it.
Reading Tyler's book, I saw the same descriptions of Lance turning against longtime friends, that I had read in previous accounts from other people. LA's personality sounds very similar to the stereotypical dictator:
1. Everything must be done *his* way.
2. Periodic purges of the people in the inner circle.
And a really disturbing aspect that Tyler describes is that LA believed that *every* race he entered *belonged* to him, and there was no possibility that anyone else deserved to win it.
10-14-12, 05:26 AM
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After being compelled to testify. He also said that if he could have, he would have deleted his memory
so as not provide any evidence of doping and not be guilty of perjury. "Cheat," lie about it, reluctantly
testify to someone else's doping (admit your own while doing so) and you get to keep your titles and you
get write and promote a book for profit. The difference, if there is any, is microscopic. TH had/has far more
to gain by "coming clean" than does LA. TH is making a name (as well as a pretty penny) off of LA's back; his
book wouldn't be but for LA. And the idea that he stands, however slight, on some moral or ethical high-ground
compared to LA is just ****ing silly to me.
As to LA and Tiger portraying themselves as paragons of virtue, that's just horse-****. Neither, IMO, did anything
close to that. C'mon now...
so as not provide any evidence of doping and not be guilty of perjury. "Cheat," lie about it, reluctantly
testify to someone else's doping (admit your own while doing so) and you get to keep your titles and you
get write and promote a book for profit. The difference, if there is any, is microscopic. TH had/has far more
to gain by "coming clean" than does LA. TH is making a name (as well as a pretty penny) off of LA's back; his
book wouldn't be but for LA. And the idea that he stands, however slight, on some moral or ethical high-ground
compared to LA is just ****ing silly to me.
As to LA and Tiger portraying themselves as paragons of virtue, that's just horse-****. Neither, IMO, did anything
close to that. C'mon now...
As to your last sentence...sorry but you are just flat wrong and it is you that have a lock on horse####. Lance portrayed himself as the ultimate clean cyclist...a guy so far beyond reproach that he couldn't be touched. His success was all based upon his genetic gifts and unbelievable training regiment. We have all learned this to be a lie of the greatest magnitude. He was the 'ring leader' of doping. Hell this level of collusion may even prove that his dope was better than his team mates to make him the fastest...lol.
As to Tiger. I grew up playing competitive golf. I know golf better than cycling. Tiger is the biggest liar to walk the planet. He is loathed more than Bonds or pretty much any famous athlete. All of this endorsements were predicated on his squeaky clean image. When interviewed to promote his marketing, he always said, it was all about his family...they always came before golf. The complete opposite is true. Tiger screwed every ***** he could get his hands on all around the world. I frankly could care less. I have no problem with rock stars having sex with consenting women...none whatsoever. But Charlie Sheen never said he was the quinessential family man. As to all of it, Tiger's mistress has always been golf. His family that he talked about to sell more Nike products was probably not even 3rd on his list. Both have gotten what they deserve.
One journalist put it best about Tiger. He is a golf champion of great maginitude. But he failed the biggest challenge all of us face...as a person.
Last edited by Campag4life; 10-14-12 at 05:40 AM.
10-14-12, 06:14 AM
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Hinault was a much bigger ass than Lance. Much bigger.
10-14-12, 06:32 AM
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Landis is a bit of an ass too.
10-14-12, 06:56 AM
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All of you Armstrong haters ought to read up on the life of the first 5 Tour winner, Jacques Anquetil.
We Americans have as of late developed a peculiar habit of cloaking our heroes with a white shroud of sanctity. Then we are outraged when they cannot live up to the impossibly high standards that we set for them.
LA doped? Meh!
LA was ruthless? Bigger meh!
Nations and fortunes are built by ruthless men and women.
We Americans have as of late developed a peculiar habit of cloaking our heroes with a white shroud of sanctity. Then we are outraged when they cannot live up to the impossibly high standards that we set for them.
LA doped? Meh!
LA was ruthless? Bigger meh!
Nations and fortunes are built by ruthless men and women.
10-14-12, 07:48 AM
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Maybe we are establishing a correlation then. The greater the champion, the bigger the a-hole to achieve champion status.
But is it really true? Sometimes but not always. Arnold Palmer comes to mind. Roger Federer in tennis....Borg and Laver were also great gentlemen...Connors and MacEnroe were the anti-Christ however and resorted to the same sharking tactics Bidden used in the debate the other night to throw the young VP hopeful off his game...who I felt showed tremendous poise.
So no...the Mac Daddy doesn't have to be the biggest a-hole....but Lance is...and so is Tiger...and so is Bonds...Sneed was a notorious a-hole...and so was Cobb...a long list comprised of perhaps more good guys than a-holes at the championship level.
But is it really true? Sometimes but not always. Arnold Palmer comes to mind. Roger Federer in tennis....Borg and Laver were also great gentlemen...Connors and MacEnroe were the anti-Christ however and resorted to the same sharking tactics Bidden used in the debate the other night to throw the young VP hopeful off his game...who I felt showed tremendous poise.
So no...the Mac Daddy doesn't have to be the biggest a-hole....but Lance is...and so is Tiger...and so is Bonds...Sneed was a notorious a-hole...and so was Cobb...a long list comprised of perhaps more good guys than a-holes at the championship level.
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10-14-12, 07:55 AM
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I see there are still a few in denial out there, but that's all right.
Another question: Why did LA retire after seven wins since he had such "a good thing going?" Was he actually scared of breaking his streak, or was something else going through his mind?
Another question: Why did LA retire after seven wins since he had such "a good thing going?" Was he actually scared of breaking his streak, or was something else going through his mind?
10-14-12, 10:33 AM
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We could dissect Tyler's situation but all said I am happy for the guy really as I personally like him more than Lance. I believe the notion of 'fairness' in any of this is an abstract construct.
As to your last sentence...sorry but you are just flat wrong and it is you that have a lock on horse####. Lance portrayed himself as the ultimate clean cyclist...a guy so far beyond reproach that he couldn't be touched. His success was all based upon his genetic gifts and unbelievable training regiment. We have all learned this to be a lie of the greatest magnitude. He was the 'ring leader' of doping. Hell this level of collusion may even prove that his dope was better than his team mates to make him the fastest...lol.
As to Tiger. I grew up playing competitive golf. I know golf better than cycling. Tiger is the biggest liar to walk the planet. He is loathed more than Bonds or pretty much any famous athlete. All of this endorsements were predicated on his squeaky clean image. When interviewed to promote his marketing, he always said, it was all about his family...they always came before golf. The complete opposite is true. Tiger screwed every ***** he could get his hands on all around the world. I frankly could care less. I have no problem with rock stars having sex with consenting women...none whatsoever. But Charlie Sheen never said he was the quinessential family man. As to all of it, Tiger's mistress has always been golf. His family that he talked about to sell more Nike products was probably not even 3rd on his list. Both have gotten what they deserve.
One journalist put it best about Tiger. He is a golf champion of great maginitude. But he failed the biggest challenge all of us face...as a person.
As to your last sentence...sorry but you are just flat wrong and it is you that have a lock on horse####. Lance portrayed himself as the ultimate clean cyclist...a guy so far beyond reproach that he couldn't be touched. His success was all based upon his genetic gifts and unbelievable training regiment. We have all learned this to be a lie of the greatest magnitude. He was the 'ring leader' of doping. Hell this level of collusion may even prove that his dope was better than his team mates to make him the fastest...lol.
As to Tiger. I grew up playing competitive golf. I know golf better than cycling. Tiger is the biggest liar to walk the planet. He is loathed more than Bonds or pretty much any famous athlete. All of this endorsements were predicated on his squeaky clean image. When interviewed to promote his marketing, he always said, it was all about his family...they always came before golf. The complete opposite is true. Tiger screwed every ***** he could get his hands on all around the world. I frankly could care less. I have no problem with rock stars having sex with consenting women...none whatsoever. But Charlie Sheen never said he was the quinessential family man. As to all of it, Tiger's mistress has always been golf. His family that he talked about to sell more Nike products was probably not even 3rd on his list. Both have gotten what they deserve.
One journalist put it best about Tiger. He is a golf champion of great maginitude. But he failed the biggest challenge all of us face...as a person.
10-14-12, 11:45 AM
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Lance is certainly not the biggest ass in cycling. Did none of you see the rear ends of those Eastern European track sprinters at the Olympics?
Think Queen wrote a song about them once upon a time.
Think Queen wrote a song about them once upon a time.