Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Professional Cycling For the Fans
Reload this Page >

Dutch scientists say that EPO does not help cyclists

Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

Dutch scientists say that EPO does not help cyclists

Old 12-05-12, 09:13 PM
  #1  
johnny99
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10,879
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 104 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Dutch scientists say that EPO does not help cyclists

https://news.discovery.com/adventure/...-20121205.html

DOES ATHLETIC DOPING EVEN WORK?


.

Last edited by 10 Wheels; 12-07-12 at 09:05 AM. Reason: copy write
johnny99 is offline  
Old 12-05-12, 10:21 PM
  #2  
pigah
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 80
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Dutch scientist say placebo controlled studies have not been conducted to test the effect of EPO on elite athletes.
pigah is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 02:03 AM
  #3  
AnthonyG
Senior Member
 
AnthonyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Queanbeyan, Australia.
Posts: 4,109
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3436 Post(s)
Liked 405 Times in 275 Posts
Grand Tours are the absolute peak of endurance sport. A guy who doesn't dope can win a one day race but to be able to perform at your peak after 20 days takes some "assistance".

Anthony
AnthonyG is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 07:33 AM
  #4  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,778

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1135 Post(s)
Liked 264 Times in 143 Posts
If Cohen actually believes that EPO doesn't help professional cyclists, particularly in the context of the Grand Tours, he's an idiot.

All you have to do is look at the climbing rates during the EPO era (such as Pantani) and compare them to times after EPO testing became available, and the biological passport went into effect.

Also, the data on what happens to a rider's blood makeup during a 3 week tour, that you see in the biological passport testing shows how your body gets beat down during a 3 week tour, and how EPO, (and blood doping, that's been assisted by using EPO to recover from taking the blood out) helps cope with that, clearly shows a marked advantage from using EPO.

Dr Cohen, could learn a few things from Dr Ferrari.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 09:10 AM
  #5  
tagaproject6
Senior Member
 
tagaproject6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,551

Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Record);Cinelli Xperience (Force);Specialized Allez (Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Centaur); Colnago AC-R Disc;Colnago V1r Limited Edition;De Rosa King 3 Limited(Force 22);DeRosa Merak(Red):Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Hydro(Di2)

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 549 Post(s)
Liked 273 Times in 141 Posts
Who funded that "research"?
tagaproject6 is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 11:17 AM
  #6  
Gordy748
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Grand Tours are the absolute peak of endurance sport. A guy who doesn't dope can win a one day race but to be able to perform at your peak after 20 days takes some "assistance".
Agree that EPO aids recovery so it had an added advantage in stage racing. But I'd disagree that it cannot be done without doping, I think Sky proved that this year. For what it's worth, it would be worthwhile running a study to find out exactly how much advantage differing doses of EPO gives an athlete. Some claim it will turn anyone into a champion rider, others say it's a 2% incremental edge at best. The truth lies somewhere between these extremes.
Gordy748 is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 11:43 AM
  #7  
cplager
The Recumbent Quant
 
cplager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Fairfield, CT
Posts: 3,080

Bikes: 2012 Cruzbike Sofrider, 2013 Cruzigami Mantis, 2016 Folding CruziTandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Gordy748 View Post
Some claim it will turn anyone into a champion rider, others say it's a 2% incremental edge at best.
I think these two statements are perfectly consistent anyone means world class cyclist. 2% would be huge.
cplager is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 11:52 AM
  #8  
Andy Somnifac 
Shut up legs.
 
Andy Somnifac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,260

Bikes: Too many.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked 142 Times in 70 Posts
That 2% can mean the difference between covering that attack on a climb, and losing their wheel and sitting up and waiting for the pack. As cplager says, 2% is indeed huge.
__________________


Andy Somnifac is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 12:51 PM
  #9  
Jed19
Senior Member
 
Jed19's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Gordy748 View Post
Agree that EPO aids recovery so it had an added advantage in stage racing. But I'd disagree that it cannot be done without doping, I think Sky proved that this year. For what it's worth, it would be worthwhile running a study to find out exactly how much advantage differing doses of EPO gives an athlete. Some claim it will turn anyone into a champion rider, others say it's a 2% incremental edge at best. The truth lies somewhere between these extremes.
Were you Sky's team director or doctor? What makes you state with "certainty" that the team is whistle-clean?
Jed19 is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 01:27 PM
  #10  
Caretaker
Heretic
 
Caretaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 2,246

Bikes: Specialized Sirrus, Giant OCR3, Giant CRS3

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2443 Post(s)
Liked 431 Times in 332 Posts
I've read the linked article and all the Dutch scientist is saying as far as I can see is "the scientific studies carried out up to now are faulty, give me the funding and I'll carry out a proper study".

Nothing in the article justifies the headline of this thread.
Caretaker is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 01:45 PM
  #11  
mprelaw
Senior Member
 
mprelaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Posts: 2,318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by tagaproject6 View Post
Who funded that "research"?
Also found it interesting that it's reported on a Discovery.com link.

And that the very first sentence mentions LA.

I read the study. They tested riders after 20 minutes of effort.
mprelaw is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 02:13 PM
  #12  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,778

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1135 Post(s)
Liked 264 Times in 143 Posts
Originally Posted by Gordy748 View Post
But I'd disagree that it cannot be done without doping, I think Sky proved that this year.
Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
Were you Sky's team director or doctor? What makes you state with "certainty" that the team is whistle-clean?

When there was no effective test for EPO, and particularly before the 50 hematacrit limit, and you could do it virtually at will, it was likely near impossible to win a grand tour without using EPO, as shown by the fact that every single person on the podium at the TDF from 1999-2005 has been shown to have doped.

50 hematacrit rule limited the advantage a bit. Effective test for EPO, which led to micro dosing, limited it more, and the biological passport made it even harder to use EPO and not be detected.

All that gives you hope that it can be done clean, and things are at least cleaner than they used to be, as evidenced by the slowing of climbing speeds.

Nonetheless, it would be naive to pronounce cycling in general, or any particular team as being definitively clean.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 02:32 PM
  #13  
Keith99
Senior Member
 
Keith99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Did I miss it?

It sounds to me like hte actual claim in ht ebody of the article is that there are no clinical studies.

That is a far cry from a study that has failed to show that EPO is effective.

And going from the other side I don't think the folks who actually understand doping claim that EPO or anything else is a magic bullet, somethign that turns a smuck into a champion. Instead the claim is that as part of a training rutine it can increase performance by 1-5%. Of course when a 22 day race is won by 5 minutes or less 1% can be pretty huge.
Keith99 is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 06:05 PM
  #14  
idoru2005
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 933
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I bet Dr. Ferrarri's "research" proves it does improve cycling performance. I'm sure he did placebo testing with the athletes he worked with. Maybe these Dutch doctors should catch up with him and compare notes.
idoru2005 is offline  
Old 12-06-12, 11:38 PM
  #15  
DinoShepherd
cycle-dog spot
 
DinoShepherd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,538

Bikes: Look, Niner, Ellsworth, Norco, Litespeed

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The last Dutchman to win a grand tour, or anything else, was when?

This may explain it.
DinoShepherd is offline  
Old 12-07-12, 07:48 AM
  #16  
roadwarrior
Senior Member
 
roadwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Someplace trying to figure it out
Posts: 10,664

Bikes: Cannondale EVO, CAAD9, Giant cross bike.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by DinoShepherd View Post
The last Dutchman to win a grand tour, or anything else, was when?

This may explain it.
Servais Knaven and Erik Dekker in recent past history, but that's about it. But that's not the point.
roadwarrior is offline  
Old 12-07-12, 07:51 AM
  #17  
cplager
The Recumbent Quant
 
cplager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Fairfield, CT
Posts: 3,080

Bikes: 2012 Cruzbike Sofrider, 2013 Cruzigami Mantis, 2016 Folding CruziTandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Here's another article about the study.

(I'm not saying I agree with the article, but thought it was relevant, so I posted it.)
cplager is offline  
Old 12-07-12, 08:41 AM
  #18  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,778

Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1135 Post(s)
Liked 264 Times in 143 Posts
Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
Did I miss it?

It sounds to me like hte actual claim in ht ebody of the article is that there are no clinical studies.

That is a far cry from a study that has failed to show that EPO is effective.

And going from the other side I don't think the folks who actually understand doping claim that EPO or anything else is a magic bullet, somethign that turns a smuck into a champion. Instead the claim is that as part of a training rutine it can increase performance by 1-5%. Of course when a 22 day race is won by 5 minutes or less 1% can be pretty huge.
As with most reports in popular media fo scientific studies, the article overstates the investigator's conclusions. So when the Doctor says there's not good data from well controlled studies, it becomes " there's no evidence EPO..."
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
merlinextraligh is offline  
Old 12-07-12, 02:24 PM
  #19  
Keith99
Senior Member
 
Keith99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
As with most reports in popular media fo scientific studies, the article overstates the investigator's conclusions. So when the Doctor says there's not good data from well controlled studies, it becomes " there's no evidence EPO..."
That far I could understand. It is the next step, the one reflected in the title of this thread.

EPO does not help cyclists.

From not proved that it does to shown that it does not!
Keith99 is offline  
Old 12-08-12, 01:14 AM
  #20  
colombo357
Senior Member
 
colombo357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Murica
Posts: 2,284
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 120 Post(s)
Liked 30 Times in 12 Posts
Originally Posted by Gordy748 View Post
For what it's worth, it would be worthwhile running a study to find out exactly how much advantage differing doses of EPO gives an athlete. Some claim it will turn anyone into a champion rider, others say it's a 2% incremental edge at best. The truth lies somewhere between these extremes.
Some recent articles mention how the winners of final HC climbs in recent years were putting out about 6 watts per kg, whereas the winners during the Armstrong era were putting out closer to 7 watts/kg.
colombo357 is offline  
Old 12-08-12, 08:15 AM
  #21  
Bacciagalupe
Professional Fuss-Budget
 
Bacciagalupe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Here's the paper: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store...al+maintenance


Actually, I'd say the authors do have a few points.

It's reasonable to hypothesize that untrained athletes won't react the same to EPO as a trained athlete.

It's reasonable to assume that the side effects of EPO can have a deleterious effect on performance.

It's entirely plausible that other aspects of the process (e.g. homologous blood doping) can reduce performance or cause some sort of harm.

While EPO does improve VO2max, there are numerous other parameters which might be negatively impacted by the drug (e.g. LT and work economy). The paper actually points out the limitations of using VO2max as the primary indicator of competitive success (p 10-11).

And they aren't saying "EPO definitively does nothing." They're saying "there's no proof at this time that it increases overall performance."
Bacciagalupe is offline  
Old 12-10-12, 02:04 PM
  #22  
Gordy748
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Jed19 View Post
Were you Sky's team director or doctor? What makes you state with "certainty" that the team is whistle-clean?
What makes you say with "certainty" that they're not?
Gordy748 is offline  
Old 12-10-12, 02:09 PM
  #23  
Gordy748
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 151
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by cplager View Post
I think these two statements are perfectly consistent anyone means world class cyclist. 2% would be huge.
Your view is predicated on the point that all other factors are equal. mine is the opposite. Without the training and physical ability, a 2% increase in performance may be enough to get you to the front of the Cat4 pack, but in order to progress to Cat2 factors like training, nutrition, coaching, mental preparation, etc, probably all play a bigger factor than the gain you get from taking EPO without changing other factors.
Gordy748 is offline  
Old 12-13-12, 11:15 AM
  #24  
brian669
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Williamsport, PA
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
first of all you can't guage performance increase by percentages across the board, there are just too many variables. you will never have 2 identical subjects to test under identical conditions. secondly, epo does what it does, that's a fact. the increase in hematocrit levels causes specific results in an endurance athlete, that's a fact. epo works - end of story.
brian669 is offline  
Old 12-13-12, 04:29 PM
  #25  
Giacomo 1 
Senior Member
 
Giacomo 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Queens NYC
Posts: 3,175

Bikes: Colnago Super, Basso Gap, Pogliaghi, Fabio Barecci, Torelli Pista, Miyata 1400A

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times in 10 Posts
When the young and naive American Motorola Team went to Europe they were pretty competitive, but within a year or two, they began to see the peloton as a runaway train, unable to keep up with it, or even barely finish within the time reg, let alone get into a breakaway. They knew something was up, and that something EPO, whose use became open and rampant.

This Dutch study cannot change what everyone witnessed and experienced in those days...
__________________
It never gets easier, you just go faster. ~ Greg LeMond
Giacomo 1 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.