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Not just a drug cheat..

Old 02-08-13, 06:37 AM
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Fidelista
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Not just a drug cheat..

...but also a race fixer.
"One of Lance Armstrong's former team-mates has backed up claims that the disgraced American paid off rivals to help win a lucrative $1 million race bonus in the early years of his career.

Last year Four Corners uncovered footage of a sworn deposition by former New Zealand rider Stephen Swart in which he alleged that Armstrong offered him and his team-mates a payment of $US50,000 to allow Armstrong to win the Triple Crown race series in the US in 1993.

The three-race series carried a bonus of $US1 million for any rider who could win all three - a prize which Armstrong duly claimed when he took victory in the third and deciding race in Philadelphia.

Now Frankie Andreu, who was in Armstrong's Motorola team at the time and went on to become one of his key Tour de France lieutenants with US Postal, has come forward with a fresh claim that a payment was offered, and made, during the Triple Crown.

Speaking on the subject for the first time to ABC TV's Four Corners, Andreu said he knew a deal was made with riders from an opposing team during the Philadelphia race.

Watch the Four Corners interview with Frankie and Betsy Andreu.

"I know in Philadelphia Lance was in a break and he made a deal with some Italians to be able to pay them some money in order to arrange so that he would be in the position to be able to win," Andreu told Four Corners.

"I want to say $50,000 was the amount and then he won the Triple Crown."

Armstrong duly won the Philadelphia race to claim what, at the time, was the biggest bonus ever paid on the American tour.
Frankie Andreu rides during a race. Photo: New claim: Frankie Andreu during a race in 2000 (AFP)

Andreu told Four Corners that he remembered Armstrong telling the rest of the Motorola team about the deal, and that some time later, he saw Armstrong with a shoe box filled with cash, which Armstrong handed to the riders he had done the deal with.

"At the time he was focused on the Triple Crown, the million dollars, that's what he was going for. And so if it meant paying off a couple a guys to ride a little bit harder in the break so that he could outsprint them at the end, then, you know, he decided that was the decision he was going to make," Andreu said.

Andreu's wife Betsy has been one of Armstrong's most outspoken critics.

The race-fixing allegations do not form part of the enormous brief of evidence produced by the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), and this is the first time Swart's allegation that a payment was made during the Triple Crown has received the backing of another rider in that race."
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-0...-claim/4499334
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Old 02-08-13, 09:18 AM
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I'm shocked that you would suggest that one professional rider would agree to pay another, or split prize money to help obtain a win for one of the riders.

These kind of deals have been done forever, and the dynamics of the situation created a situation where Armstrong, being the only guy eligible for the $1,000,000 bonus, stood to win much more than any other rider in the break. Thus making a deal economically rational for all the participants.

I do question the amount, however.

IIRC, the bonus was annuitized over 20 years, and when Motorola elected to take the cash option it reduced it to $400,000. And I believe they put it in with all the prize money in the team pool, which got distributed at the end of the year. So Armstrong's personal share might not even have been $50,000.

And the Bonus winning would be subject to tax, but the payoff, under the table, would not be deductible. So, unless the team Motorola, or the other riders on the team, contributed to the payoff, $50,000 would have been a losing proposition.
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Old 02-08-13, 12:45 PM
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The more I read of them, the more I see that the Andreus are just opportunist scum.
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Old 02-08-13, 02:20 PM
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...or that they are intent upon exacting their pound of flesh....can't say I blame them.
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Old 02-08-13, 02:29 PM
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Why is he waited till now to come forward with drug , race deal information ? he should've warn the authority while he was still a member of the team . Don't tell me him and his wife just found GOD last few years .
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Old 02-08-13, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
The more I read of them, the more I see that the Andreus are just opportunist scum.
The only problem with that theory is, they haven't done anything (yet) to capitalize off their "opportunistic scumbag" activities. And 7 years is a long time to hold off.

That said, I would want more than one witness and/or a paper trail before presuming guilt in this particular matter.

Plus, one race is a fraction of the madness that is showing up in European football. What is it up to now, 700 fixed matches?
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Old 02-08-13, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by baj32161 View Post
...or that they are intent upon exacting their pound of flesh....can't say I blame them.
that could be, but they have been pretty much lying (spiting out the same BS) from 2003 - 2012.
In other words, they started telling their Armstrong made Frankie dope BS right after Frankie stopped collecting a paycheck from Lance & Co
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Old 02-08-13, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
The only problem with that theory is, they haven't done anything (yet) to capitalize off their "opportunistic scumbag" activities. And 7 years is a long time to hold off.
Well, when your Husband is doping too, it makes sense to "hold off" from telling the story.
It might impact his abhility to get some of that TDF bonus money, and his paycheck too.
But if your husband is no longer collecting a USPS paycheck or getting those TDF's bonuses,
it makes sense to stop holding off and tell the Hospital Room Story and tell the BS story that
that meanie Lance made her hubby dope. And it makes sense for Frankie to never correct her--
oh wait, he finally did correct her and admitted under oath that first time he doped was in 1996
and not 1999, as they had been saying for years.
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Old 02-08-13, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
But if your husband is no longer collecting a USPS paycheck or getting those TDF's bonuses, it makes sense to stop holding off and tell the Hospital Room Story...
He was still working in cycling. By outing Armstrong, he knew he could face sanctions, blowback from Armstrong and/or the omerta, and possibly get sued. IIRC, Armstrong had already filed suit against Emma O'Reilly by 2005, and had certainly already slagged her publicly as a "prostitute" and an "alcoholic."

In addition, and as already noted, the Andreus were frequently threatened and intimidated over the years, such as the infamous (and documented) McIlvain phone call.

If the Andreus were motivated by self-interest, they would have been better served to stay silent. And since there is no sign of them trying to financially capitalize on their situation, it doesn't make much sense to call them "opportunists."
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Old 02-08-13, 09:26 PM
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p
Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
He was still working in cycling. By outing Armstrong, he knew he could face sanctions, blowback from Armstrong and/or the omerta, and possibly get sued. IIRC, Armstrong had already filed suit against Emma O'Reilly by 2005, and had certainly already slagged her publicly as a "prostitute" and an "alcoholic."

In addition, and as already noted, the Andreus were frequently threatened and intimidated over the years, such as the infamous (and documented) McIlvain phone call.

If the Andreus were motivated by self-interest, they would have been better served to stay silent. And since there is no sign of them trying to financially capitalize on their situation, it doesn't make much sense to call them "opportunists."
PM Event Services and ask him about Andreu

There's a reason that the vast majority of people hold Andreu in high regard, and would piss on Armstrong's grave.
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Old 02-13-13, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
p

PM Event Services and ask him about Andreu

There's a reason that the vast majority of people hold Andreu in high regard, and would piss on Armstrong's grave.
Why wait until he dies?
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Old 02-13-13, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
He was still working in cycling. By outing Armstrong, he knew he could face sanctions, blowback from Armstrong and/or the omerta, and possibly get sued. IIRC, Armstrong had already filed suit against Emma O'Reilly by 2005, and had certainly already slagged her publicly as a "prostitute" and an "alcoholic."

In addition, and as already noted, the Andreus were frequently threatened and intimidated over the years, such as the infamous (and documented) McIlvain phone call.

If the Andreus were motivated by self-interest, they would have been better served to stay silent. And since there is no sign of them trying to financially capitalize on their situation, it doesn't make much sense to call them "opportunists."
They are opportunists, who cry a lot about, but have yet to provide evidence, of Armstrong interfering with Frankie's employment. Reminds me of the time Betsy said Frankie only doped to help Armstrong win the 1999 TDF. Of course, that was before Frankie swore under penalty of perjury that he doped in 1998 to prepare for the TDF, a race that Armstrong had no intention of entering. Come to think of it, Betsy whines and cries to the press and Frankie follows along and supports her by publically agreeing and/or by publically remaining silent, until he's placed under oath, that is.
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Old 02-24-13, 08:08 PM
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More shall be revealed about Mr. Armstrong. We do know for sure that he is a liar, cheater and drug abusing cyclist. He should call himself Mr. Former - former winner of the Tour, former Olympic medal etc.et al/
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Old 02-25-13, 11:09 AM
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It's ironic that drug cheat Vinokourov who has also been identified as a race fixer was allowed to compete in the London Olympics and take a road race gold medal back to Kazakhstan. It's only fair that if you hang one, you should hang 'em all.
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Old 02-25-13, 11:20 AM
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I never met Betsy, but Frankie started out as a track specialist, which was how I knew him. He was an all-around decent guy.

I didn't have nearly as much contact with Armstrong (I was a track racer and he was still mostly a triathlete) but the few times I did notice him it was because he was being an A-hole.

I don't have problems with pro racers taking drugs OR buying races - both were pretty SOP at least in my day - but trying to paint Frankie as the bad guy in an Armstrong/Andreu comparison is totally off base.
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Old 02-25-13, 11:25 AM
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Armstrong doesn't seem have a foundation of good morals. Even the cancer foundation he started was to pay for his own hospital bills. Making him one of the few people with cancer to benefit from the Livestrong foundation.
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Old 02-25-13, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Ray R View Post
It's ironic that drug cheat Vinokourov who has also been identified as a race fixer was allowed to compete in the London Olympics and take a road race gold medal back to Kazakhstan. It's only fair that if you hang one, you should hang 'em all.
So all convicted of PED offenses should have their racing results cleared and be suspended as provided by the code, as Vino did?
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Old 02-25-13, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cyclogeck View Post
Making him one of the few people with cancer to benefit from the Livestrong foundation.
I'm no fan of Armstrong, but to say that Livestrong has done no good for cancer sufferers, and their families, is off base.
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Old 02-25-13, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy Somnifac View Post
I'm no fan of Armstrong, but to say that Livestrong has done no good for cancer sufferers, and their families, is off base.
I said one of the few to benefit. Livestrong is doing some things for the community. Their website is very useful for information that is very expansive. That's where I learned they've taken $500 million in donations and spent $25 million "helping" actual cancer victims.
Bottom line is if you want help people with early screening or actual treatment of cancer the American Cancer Society will do just that, help.
The Livestrong foundation might just as likely spend $5 million on ANOTHER party in Ireland.
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Old 02-28-13, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Athens80 View Post
So all convicted of PED offenses should have their racing results cleared and be suspended as provided by the code, as Vino did?
This makes a lot of sense, now that you mention it. Currently if Rider X is caught tomorrow doping, he's out for 2 years but gets to keep his prize money and palmares. If that 2 year ban came with an automatic lawsuit to recover the prize money and being wiped from the history books, it might have given Rider X pause to think before doping.

Regardless, when athletes start getting paid money to compete, sportsmanship goes out the window. Heck, never mind European sport, just look at Indian cricket; any sport where gambling is involved is liable to results manipulation. Doesn't have to be just the pros.
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Old 02-28-13, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
but trying to paint Frankie as the bad guy in an Armstrong/Andreu comparison is totally off base.
Who is trying to paint Frankie as a "bad guy"?

When Frankie publically first "came clean" about doping he lied; under oath he admitted to first doping in 1996 not 1999, like he and his wife had said. He never corrected his wife's claim that Frankie only doped to help Armstrong win the 1999 Tour de France; again, under oath, he admitted to using EPO to prepare for the 1998 Tour -- a race he (and certainly his wife) knew Armstrong was not scheduled to race.

Now, why would Frankie (likely with advice from his wife) choose to come clean ( until put under oath) about doping in 1999 but not any of the other years he actually doped? Could it be that it would be easier to imply (as his admission seem to do) and convince people (as his wife tried to do) that he was "bullied" and "pressured" by Lance into doping; that is, paint Lance as the "bad guy" and Frankie as the reluctant doper? If so, then Frankie, along with his wife, are not so different than Armstrong. If not, then why hasn't he (haven't they) addressed the discrepancies in Frankie's changing story (I mean besides the fact that no reporters are asking him to)? It seems to me that Armstrong is the story; thus, Frankie's initial false admission of his doping is not getting any attention, but his and his wife's baseless accusations of Armstrong interfering with his career are seen as newsworthy. Now there may be "good guys," but I'm certain that Frankie isn't among them. Does that make Frankie a "bad guy"? I dunno. And more importantly, I don't care, as his being good or bad doesn't alter the record.

There really is no need for me to paint Armstrong as a "bad guy," as there are many wiling to do so and who have done so. However, I find it disgusting to let Frankie's (post-admission and pre-affidavit) lies go unchallenged because it doesn't fit in with the "Armstrong-bullied-his-teammates-to-dope" or the "he's-such-an-a'hole" angle that is so popular with the media and "pro-cycling" fans now.

If you see highlighting Frankie's and his wife smear campaign against Armstrong as trying to paint him as the bad guy, so be it. But characterizing my posts as such does nothing to change the facts outlined.

I'm sure some of you will scoff at my idea that the Andreus targeted Armstrong in a smear campaign -- maybe because you see the irony and/or you see it as poetic justice. Well, I see it that way too. But just because Armstrong went to extreme measures to smear others (the Andreus among them), does not mean that I'll stop calling a spade a spade. It's pretty clear to me, that the Andreus wanted to release (pre affidavit) a calculated and partly truthful admission of Frankie's doping.

I don't see this story as containing bad or good guys. Maybe that's why I'm able to call a spade a spade.

Last edited by Cat4Lifer; 02-28-13 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 03-03-13, 06:30 AM
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LOL...when I was overseas, if you were in the break, every race was a bidding war. If you didn't play, everyone would gang up on you and there is no way you could win. Between that and the gambling on the riders, it was pretty funny. But to move up, people were not looking at wins. Besides, I watched guys inject themselves while on the bike with all kinds of stuff.

Welcome to the real world of sports.
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Old 03-03-13, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Cat4Lifer View Post
Who is trying to paint Frankie as a "bad guy"?
You are, obviously. Accusations like "Lying, opportunist scum" are pretty clear.

Beyond that, it's clear that you've formed your opinions without any real firsthand experience either with top-level bicycle racing or with the people you are attacking. Back when I was coaching LaGrangers, I went hoarse trying to get the professional cat. 4s to shut up and listen. I never met any group of people who held such firm opinions backed with so little information. Apparently that culture persists.
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Old 03-04-13, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
You are, obviously. Accusations like "Lying, opportunist scum" are pretty clear.

Beyond that, it's clear that you've formed your opinions without any real firsthand experience either with top-level bicycle racing or with the people you are attacking. Back when I was coaching LaGrangers, I went hoarse trying to get [/B]the professional cat. 4s [/B]to shut up and listen. I never met any group of people who held such firm opinions backed with so little information. Apparently that culture persists.

That is pretty funny....I helped one at the bike shop this past Saturday.
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Old 03-04-13, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
You are, obviously. Accusations like "Lying, opportunist scum" are pretty clear.
But he did lie, and hasn't admitted, to my knowledge, that he lied, and Betsy goes on-and-on
on TV about how Armstrong "destroyed" pro-cycling, but she and her husband haven't mentioned Frankie's role in the supposed destruction of pro-cycling. They haven't publically acknowledge how Frankie lied in his "coming-clean-story" and still haven't addressed his lie (admittedly, no one in the media really seems to care that he lied). And no matter how many self-adulating posts you make about your glory days of coaching category fours, none of them will rebut, refute, or erase the Andreu's opportunistic lies about his own doping. So, restrain yourself and try to remain on topic.

Thx
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