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Tour de France 2014 - Stage 5, Ypres > Arenberg Porte du Hainaut 155.5 km

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Tour de France 2014 - Stage 5, Ypres > Arenberg Porte du Hainaut 155.5 km

Old 07-09-14, 08:58 PM
  #101  
canam73
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
He also said it's unfair to counter attack if he screws up his own attack with a dropped chain.
Slightly incomplete:

It's unfair to counter attack if he screws up his own attack with a dropped chain in a stage race where he was ahead because he attacked when his rivals were held up by his own brother's crash.
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Old 07-09-14, 09:02 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by paperbackwriter View Post
But with such doubts we go into Andy Schleck teritory (he used to like to say that it's unfair when someone attacked him on the descent or in the rain). You know what Nibali said today? "I know how to ride a bike". Today was very much about bike handling skills and focus - qualities that a Grand Tour winner shouldn't lack; and in fact he's supposed to be a good all-rounder so classics-like stages shouldn't pose a problem. Have you heard about Fiorenzo Magni? He came into 1956 Giro as the defending champion, however on stage 12 he broke his left clavicle. He didn't pull out and to handle a bike, he attached something to his handlebar (forgot what it was) and held it between his teeth. Surely it wasn't ideal so on stage 16 he crashed again, fell on his clavicle and broke humerus. He passed out and they were going to take him to the hospital but as soon as he woke up, he screamed at them and told them he wants to keep racing. He regained contact with the peloton as they waited for him. Then came stage 20. There were few difficult climbs and it was snowing like hell. At that point of the race Charly Gaul was 16 minutes ahead and by soloing to the win there he managed to win the whole Giro. The pink jersey and 59 other riders abandoned because of the weather. And Magni? He finished second on that stage and in the whole race. He said he was watching all those riders giving up, the pink jersey giving up and he thought they are all mad.

This is cycling, what would you take out today? The rain? The corners? Who crashed badly on the cobbles? Only Van den Broeck (he was the rider in red someone asked about) but I believe he's okay since he finished just 2'02" down on Boom. Sure, tires could play a part but did anyone even mention it? (Cyclists do like their excuses after all.) It's as if Cancellara would complain that the Tour is the only big thing in this sport and yet he's too heavy and has no chance to win. All those big and heavy classics guys do have to go over climbs, it's only fair if tiny climbers feel their pain from time to time.

IMO it makes the race WAY more exciting that Contador lost 3 minutes. And he can make it up. Nibali has never outclimbed an in-form Contador and he was also never equally good. Sure, things change, some riders get older and other get into their peak years. So far Nibbles isn't a great climber this season (unlike Contador). And overall he's a great, gutsy cyclist but a less talented climber and an inferior TT-ist. So it's still game on. Also for Richie Porte though it would be kind of disgusting.
By the way, if Wiggins was here, he wouldn't have finished with Nibali (as someone has suggested). He's good on cobbles as 2014 Paris-Roubaix has shown but he HATES to take risks when the road gets wet.

And, by the way, most exciting Tour stage in YEARS.
Beautifully written.
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Old 07-09-14, 09:10 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by enjoi07 View Post
Beautifully written.
+1
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Old 07-09-14, 09:16 PM
  #104  
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I saw way more crashes on the wet tarmac than on the pave. To hot into the turns and washing out or touching wet brakes, getting no response, grabbing more and locking up (I'm betting there was a lot of that). When it's wet you don't drive it deep and brake hard unless you want to get some sponsors name off of your hip.

As for the fight for position, they fight for position before the climbs, they fight for position before the sprints, they fight for position before pretty much anything that is not 4 lanes wide and flat. Do you really think normal racing tire is going to give more grip in the wet than a larger softer tire for the cobbles? Really?

The crashes today on the tarmac, and that's where most of them were, were due to rain and riders going too fast. Froomy didn't get w/i miles of the pave, there was no "fighting for position' going on when he went down, there was a road race and he binned it.

Personally I loved it, then again I've gotten pretty bored with the average grand tour stage in the last couple of decades. (my two favorite stages in recent yrs were the TdF stage a couple of yrs ago when Andy took a flyer and tried to win it and stage 8 of the Daphine this yr)

IMO this was one of the best TdF stages I've seen in a very long time.
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Old 07-09-14, 10:42 PM
  #105  
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There's quite a lot to like in this Tour so far. My eyes are on Sagan and Kwiatkowski: a couple of young all-rounders, with a bit of a rivalry.
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Old 07-10-14, 02:41 AM
  #106  
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I don't think there'll be rivalry between Sagan and Kwiatkowski. The only chance for it are classics-like stages but in general Sagan made it clear his main rival is Kittel as his goal is green jersey (he even said his tactics is to stay on Kittel's wheel in the sprints to avoid losing too many points). Meanwhile Kwiatkowski is fighting for a good GC placing (yesterday OPQS manager said they won't go for Terpstra stage win because they'll be protecting Kwiatkowski for GC) and particularly for white jersey - that means that his biggest rivals are... well, Pinot? Slagter? (Since Slagter is in fact working for Talansky, looks like not much competition there.)
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Old 07-10-14, 03:39 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by DLBroox View Post
Both of Froome's wrists were wrapped and he was a mess already. He fell before the cobbles. Maybe the control over his bike was compromised. We've been through two sections of the cobbles and no one has fallen on them.
Froom crashed because he couldn't control the way his 4 candles..he's sure to get a wigging from his team. Bet he feels like the sky has fallen on his head.


I'll get me coat.
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Old 07-10-14, 05:36 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by hueyhoolihan View Post
i suspect yesterday's crash contributed to Froome's demise today. maybe had difficulty handling the bike...
I think you are right. Had he not injured his hand he might have avoided the Wednesday crashes.
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Old 07-10-14, 10:24 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Ken Brown View Post
Formula 1 drivers put on rain tires when it gets wet, why don't TDF racers? They would be a bit slower on the straights but faster in the corners and you are less likely to abandon. Or might some of the riders have had a bit of tread?
Apparently they did run everything from different tires to different bikes: Special gear for the cobbles of stage 5 - 21 Days of Tour Tech - BikeRadar
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Old 07-10-14, 12:47 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by paperbackwriter View Post
By the way, if Wiggins was here, he wouldn't have finished with Nibali (as someone has suggested). He's good on cobbles as 2014 Paris-Roubaix has shown but he HATES to take risks when the road gets wet.
Just saying, but Wiggo won the recent British National time trial championship on wet roads, by a huge margin. Second was Geraint Thomas, saying he did not want to risk the wet roads.
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Old 07-10-14, 12:52 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by paperbackwriter View Post
IMO it makes the race WAY more exciting that Contador lost 3 minutes. And he can make it up. Nibali has never outclimbed an in-form Contador and he was also never equally good. Sure, things change, some riders get older and other get into their peak years. So far Nibbles isn't a great climber this season (unlike Contador). And overall he's a great, gutsy cyclist but a less talented climber and an inferior TT-ist. So it's still game on. Also for Richie Porte though it would be kind of disgusting.
By the way, if Wiggins was here, he wouldn't have finished with Nibali (as someone has suggested). He's good on cobbles as 2014 Paris-Roubaix has shown but he HATES to take risks when the road gets wet.

And, by the way, most exciting Tour stage in YEARS.
But, when has Contador out climbed an in form Nibali? Contador did several years ago. But Nibali wasn't riding as good then & Contador doesn't appear to be riding as good now as he did then. Nibali appears to be in much better form than he was in the Dauphine.

Flowerman did great yesterday. The flat was unfortunate. I think he would have been right there with Nibali, no problems. My wife & I are pulling for him.
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Old 07-10-14, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HardyWeinberg View Post
Apparently they did run everything from different tires to different bikes: Special gear for the cobbles of stage 5 - 21 Days of Tour Tech - BikeRadar
So they used wider tires and lower pressure.... I'm really not seeing how anyone can seriously say the cobbles caused the crashes when the tire changes for cobbles should have led to better grip on the road than their usual tires. The only possible thing I can see is that perhaps some of the riders expected more of an improvement than they actually got and just weren't familiar enough with the tires to know where the slipping point would be. That's plausible, but I can't really see any justification for not being familiar with your own gear. The reaction I've heard would be like calling for the removal of time trials if a lot of people crashed during a rainy time trial.

The Bike Radar site showed a bike with 53-44 gearing. I think I heard Cancellara say the Astana guys were using 53-39 -- he was apparently very interested in their setup. I'm curious what difference that might have made for them.
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Old 07-10-14, 01:53 PM
  #113  
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The stones are more than a hundred years old , they wear smoother with use

now that the roman imperial cart wheels are not Iron banded ..

53-46 is the normal P-R combo , dropped chains more trouble than a missing hill gear.


the roads are oily from motor traffic . the moss between the cobbles presents different issues.
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Old 07-10-14, 01:54 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
So they used wider tires and lower pressure.... I'm really not seeing how anyone can seriously say the cobbles caused the crashes when the tire changes for cobbles should have led to better grip on the road than their usual tires.
They said the cobbles, wet and covered in mud, were difficult to walk on. Even with 30mm tires at 60psi, you're going to have some difficulty when you're averaging 30mph.
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Old 07-10-14, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SpeshulEd View Post
They said the cobbles, wet and covered in mud, were difficult to walk on. Even with 30mm tires at 60psi, you're going to have some difficulty when you're averaging 30mph.
Yeah, but they were crashing mainly on the pavement.
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Old 07-10-14, 02:04 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by daveF View Post
But, when has Contador out climbed an in form Nibali? Contador did several years ago. But Nibali wasn't riding as good then & Contador doesn't appear to be riding as good now as he did then. Nibali appears to be in much better form than he was in the Dauphine.

Flowerman did great yesterday. The flat was unfortunate. I think he would have been right there with Nibali, no problems. My wife & I are pulling for him.
Yeah, the last time he outclimbed an in form Nibali was in 2011 Giro but since then they weren't even racing together until this season - and this season Nibali simply wasn't in form. And you could reverse the situation, Nibali never managed to hang on with an in form Contador.
Nibali showed his best ever climbing form in Giro 2013, however this season he has yet to show something spectacular in the mountains - and he's not a one-race rider who goes to races for training, he tends to try throughout the season. Sure, he was strong on those few stages but that doesn't mean he suddenly found his climbing legs. Remember Giro 2010? First Vino and Evans destroyed Basso on Montalcino stage, then L'Aquilla happened and Arroyo got a huge head start. But then Mortirolo and Zoncolan came and boom, Basso still managed to win.

And in Tirreno-Adriatico, Pais Vasco, Catalunya and Dauphine Contador showed his best climbing shape since 2011. Besides, well. Generally speaking, Nibali is simply less talented climber than Contador - he has many qualities but raw climbing talent is not one of them.

Still, I can be wrong. AC has a lot of time to make up and his team isn't as good as it should be. And Nibali is a fighter too. We'll see.

edit: okay, they probably were racing together at some point. But with different racing schedules (VN preparing for the Giro, AC for the Tour) it's hard to compare.

Last edited by paperbackwriter; 07-10-14 at 02:05 PM. Reason: my own stupidity
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Old 07-10-14, 07:16 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Yeah, but they were crashing mainly on the pavement.
I know, I know...still, wet pavement sucks, especially when it starts to slick from road/car oils.

Saw this come through my twitter feed today...fun read:
Tour de France tech: Special gear for the cobbles of stage 5 | Cyclingnews.com
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Old 07-10-14, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Brown View Post
I think you are right. Had he not injured his hand he might have avoided the Wednesday crashes.

Horner says he was very close on Froome's last crash and that Froome's wheel simply caught a crack while avoiding some traffic furniture and that it was just an unlucky thing that wasn't his fault and could have happened to anyone.
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