Sagan in green without a stage win
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How can a sprinter be in green with no wins?
I really don't understand how a rider can be the leader in the green jersey without having won a stage set-up for a sprinter to win. What am I not understanding?
Also, and I've wanted to ask this forever, at the end of a super close race, when the sprinters lunge and push forward on the handlebars, that really doesn't actually do anything does it? It's not like you can stretch the bike out.
edit: I'm so sorry if the title of the thread is a spoiler. I didn't think about it until the minute after I posted. If a mod is around and wants to change the title please do.
Also, and I've wanted to ask this forever, at the end of a super close race, when the sprinters lunge and push forward on the handlebars, that really doesn't actually do anything does it? It's not like you can stretch the bike out.
edit: I'm so sorry if the title of the thread is a spoiler. I didn't think about it until the minute after I posted. If a mod is around and wants to change the title please do.
Last edited by DLBroox; 07-17-14 at 02:33 PM.
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It's not number of stage wins. It's points per stage.
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Plus a bunch of points at the intermediate sprints.
It's not unheard of for the green jersey to not win a stage. Sean Kelly won his last Tour stage in 1982, the same year he won the first of his 4 green jerseys. Zabel won green with no stage wins in 98 and 99.
He still has half a Tour to go, though with a lot of mountains to get over.
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Plus a bunch of points at the intermediate sprints.
It's not unheard of for the green jersey to not win a stage. Sean Kelly won his last Tour stage in 1982, the same year he won the first of his 4 green jerseys. Zabel won green with no stage wins in 98 and 99.
He still has half a Tour to go, though with a lot of mountains to get over.
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Yes, this is an established technique, informally called "throwing the bike". <--- googleable phrase.
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While I know Sagan was never a pure sprinter, he appears to have lost a stroke or two in the sprints as of late.
I can understand him not beating the "big boy" sprinters like Kittel, Cav or Greipel, but he can't seem to win even when these guys are out of contention. Yesterdays stage and todays were tailor made for him and he still couldn't get it done.
Anybody think he's beginning to move away from sprinting to become a better all-arounder?
I can understand him not beating the "big boy" sprinters like Kittel, Cav or Greipel, but he can't seem to win even when these guys are out of contention. Yesterdays stage and todays were tailor made for him and he still couldn't get it done.
Anybody think he's beginning to move away from sprinting to become a better all-arounder?
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Thanks guys. I understand the points now. And throwing the bike is fascinating!
Last edited by DLBroox; 07-17-14 at 08:47 PM.
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A couple different things going on w/ Sagan, I think.
First, he is contesting the win on many or most of the stages. A pure sprinter does as little work as possible in every stage that doesn't look likely to end with a bunch sprint. Sagan is burning a ton of energy almost everyday, and not getting many recovery days.
Second, he is so feared that everyone in the finishing bunch is working against him. Whenever he goes, everyone marks him, he's never given an inch.
Third, his team is weak. Notice he always ends up isolated in the leading bunch, no teammate to work with, and he never has a leadout train.
Fourth, he is not a pure sprinter. When equally fresh, on a flat finish Sagan is maybe the 10th fastest sprinter in the Tour. When he is tired from contesting stage after stage, Sagan is slower. When he has gone up against pure sprinters and beats them at the line, it is often in uphill finishes.
Fifth, he does seem to have just a touch less form this year than last, although I may be imagining it, but it seemed that way from the classics.
First, he is contesting the win on many or most of the stages. A pure sprinter does as little work as possible in every stage that doesn't look likely to end with a bunch sprint. Sagan is burning a ton of energy almost everyday, and not getting many recovery days.
Second, he is so feared that everyone in the finishing bunch is working against him. Whenever he goes, everyone marks him, he's never given an inch.
Third, his team is weak. Notice he always ends up isolated in the leading bunch, no teammate to work with, and he never has a leadout train.
Fourth, he is not a pure sprinter. When equally fresh, on a flat finish Sagan is maybe the 10th fastest sprinter in the Tour. When he is tired from contesting stage after stage, Sagan is slower. When he has gone up against pure sprinters and beats them at the line, it is often in uphill finishes.
Fifth, he does seem to have just a touch less form this year than last, although I may be imagining it, but it seemed that way from the classics.
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While I know Sagan was never a pure sprinter, he appears to have lost a stroke or two in the sprints as of late.
I can understand him not beating the "big boy" sprinters like Kittel, Cav or Greipel, but he can't seem to win even when these guys are out of contention. Yesterdays stage and todays were tailor made for him and he still couldn't get it done.
Anybody think he's beginning to move away from sprinting to become a better all-arounder?
I can understand him not beating the "big boy" sprinters like Kittel, Cav or Greipel, but he can't seem to win even when these guys are out of contention. Yesterdays stage and todays were tailor made for him and he still couldn't get it done.
Anybody think he's beginning to move away from sprinting to become a better all-arounder?
Yes I do think he's trying to develop into an all rounder capable of winning major stage races like P-N. If he can win a P-N then he has a realistic chance of competing for a podium place in the Tour, Giro or Vuelta.
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If you can win a yellow jersey w/o a stage win; then I don't see the confusion with winning the green jersey.
Sagan is winning because he's always in the mix, he's very consistent.
Cheetahs are the fastest land animal, but still they get their food stolen by hyenas. Just because you're a specialist doesn't mean you're the winner in the end. In many ways being a specialist is very much a weakness.
Sagan is winning because he's always in the mix, he's very consistent.
Cheetahs are the fastest land animal, but still they get their food stolen by hyenas. Just because you're a specialist doesn't mean you're the winner in the end. In many ways being a specialist is very much a weakness.
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The yellow jersey is based on the time differences, I get that. It's clear you don't need to win a stage to still be winning on time. Especially when you understand break aways and sprint endings. The points classification was a bit muddier to me because people erroneously refer to it as the sprinter's jersey.
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I was confused because of comments like this from the New York Times this morning: .."Sagan, who holds the green jersey as the best sprinter,"
The yellow jersey is based on the time differences, I get that. It's clear you don't need to win a stage to still be winning on time. Especially when you understand break aways and sprint endings. The points classification was a bit muddier to me because people erroneously refer to it as the sprinter's jersey.
The yellow jersey is based on the time differences, I get that. It's clear you don't need to win a stage to still be winning on time. Especially when you understand break aways and sprint endings. The points classification was a bit muddier to me because people erroneously refer to it as the sprinter's jersey.
And Sagan has definitely been the most consistent sprinter. He has 4 2nd places and 5 more top 10s, always having to win a sprint to get that. No other sprinter is close to that. Kittel has his 3 wins, but he's been nowhere in any stage since.
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This a little better than NYT at describing it 2014 Tour de France Green-Jersey Points Competition Contenders | Bicycling Magazine
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The physics of 'throwing the bike" are that when the rider shifts his weight aft on the bike, the bike itself shifts forward to maintain the same CG.
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And crucial to winning (or not losing) close races.
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I was confused because of comments like this from the New York Times this morning: .."Sagan, who holds the green jersey as the best sprinter,"
The yellow jersey is based on the time differences, I get that. It's clear you don't need to win a stage to still be winning on time. Especially when you understand break aways and sprint endings. The points classification was a bit muddier to me because people erroneously refer to it as the sprinter's jersey.
The yellow jersey is based on the time differences, I get that. It's clear you don't need to win a stage to still be winning on time. Especially when you understand break aways and sprint endings. The points classification was a bit muddier to me because people erroneously refer to it as the sprinter's jersey.
Great sports paper, the Times.
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I'm sorry that my reading of something other than VeloNews offends you.
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Being able to get over the intermediate climbs and being fast enough to place in the bunch sprints is a pretty hard to beat cobination for a green jersey contender. Sagan might not have to collect another point.
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Yeah, the fact that Sagan was third on Stage 15 in front of many quality sprinters is why he is well deserving of the Green.
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#23
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The green jersey competition is over, but Sagan finishing the tour with this jersey and no stage wins will be a huge disappointment to him and the team. The early stage in England where he didn't respond to Nibali's final attack at the finish, instead looking around for someone else to lead him up to Nibali, was a huge blunder.
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The green jersey competition is over, but Sagan finishing the tour with this jersey and no stage wins will be a huge disappointment to him and the team. The early stage in England where he didn't respond to Nibali's final attack at the finish, instead looking around for someone else to lead him up to Nibali, was a huge blunder.
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Being able to get over the intermediate climbs and being fast enough to place in the bunch sprints is a pretty hard to beat cobination for a green jersey contender. Sagan might not have to collect another point.
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