SoonerLater

Can anyone suggest a source for a light and rigid (no suspension) frame or frameset or complete bike to be fitted with 20" (ISO 406) wheels?

My six year old is riding a 20" (406) bike now, but it's got suspension front and rear and weighs about as much as a Chevy small block V8. Even so, he's routinely riding 15+ miles @ 10-12mph average (all on paved trails). He loves biking, but I think he'd love it a lot more with a much lighter bike. I've Googled every way I can think of but can't find much. I'll buy him a real road bike in a year or two. For now I'd just like him to have a lighter bike.

masiman

Geared unsuspended 20" kids bikes are very difficult to find anymore. None of the larger manufacturers (Trek, Giant, Gary Fisher, etc.) configure them that way anymore. The single speeds will be suspensionless but add gears and they add front suspension at a minimum.

There was a thread recently in here that mentioned an English made bike that looked like just the ticket though. Light frame, decent components, etc. The only downside was the cost. It was fairly reasonable on the bike but the shipping bumped it up to ~$500 if I remember correctly. I'll try to find the thread later.

Sci-Fi

Could consider buying a Denali road bike for ~$150.00. Big thread about it here:
https://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/237231-review-gmc-denali-bicycle.html

Or just replace the front fork with a rigid steel one...that should shave a few pounds off.

lesterdog

Here's the thread Masiman's referencing:

https://www.bikeforums.net/recreational-family/299322-advice-bike-small-7-year-old-boy.html

I bought a BMX racing bike for my 7-year old who does similar riding. Light as a feather, he does 20+ no problem regularly. pro's & cons of such bikes as well as the british 20" discussed in thread above.

masiman

The kid is 6 years old!! How is he going to fit the Denali (700c rims). There is a boys version but that is a 17" frame with 24" tires. Very, very unlikely that will fit him.

On the other hand, the fork replacement idea could work. You'll have to find a bike to swap the forks with. Hopefully you won't have to contend with the kid not liking mismatched paint on the bike.

Thanks for the the link lesterdog.

bikejack

Checkout Junior BMX racing bikes, they are light, rigid and run the larger 450 - 1" wheels.

The later models have Aheads so you can play around with flat and shallow drop bars if you want (note* older BMX quills and bars are different to road).

I know Gt, Redline and Diamondback all do this size bike.

GamecockTaco

well, if you're doing all paved trails, why not just all in and get the kid a junior road bike. I got my 6 year old a Felt F24 for Christmas. Has to change the stem and turn the seatpost around to get ride of any setback, but with those minor adjustments, he just did fit the bike. Now he has hit another growth spurt and it's even better.

He absolutely LOVES it. Downside is $$$$, but these are often on fleabay. Trek, Orbea and Felt all make one and I'm fairly certain you'll find others as you look also. The used ones typically go for around $375-400 when we were looking.

Otherwise, he also has a Giant 125 that is an '06 model that is 7 speed and rigid fork for his off-road adventures.

SoonerLater

I would if that were the only problem. Unfortunately, his bike also has a rear suspension made by hinging the frame near the bottom bracket. Replacing the fork would help, but it will still be heavier than my steel Surly Long Haul Trucker touring bike (in the largest framesize made).

I guess biking is no different than most sports in that no matter how much research you do before you jump in, you still need to participate in it for a year or so before you begin to know how to determine what you want. I bought this bike for my son barely more than a year ago. When I bought it for my son, I gave no consideration to anything other than (1) how much it cost, (2) how cool my son thought it looked. I'd never buy it for him today. In fact, none of the "first" bikes I bought for my wife, my daughter, and myself would I buy again if I had it to do over again. I'm just hoping not to have to add on a new garage to hold the family bike fleet before I finally get this right.

simsi

Take a look at Isla Bikes, who I think masiman was trying to think of, (https://www.islabikes.co.uk/index.html). We're going to Britain in August and fully intend to buy one of their smaller bikes for my 3 1/2 year old. I've heard nothing but praise for them so far, and unlike the major manufacturers they don't weigh a ton.

I'm not sure how the cost would stack up, importing into the US from Britain though.

Ian

bbattle

Giant Frantic 20" Look Dad, no suspension. $160

bbattle

And for a little bit bigger kid, the Trek KDR 7.2FX with 24" wheels. $430


To look cool riding with Dad, the Trek KDR 1000 $650

bbattle

Cool looking 20" cruiser bike from Marin $259 boys and girls options.
LINK

SoonerLater

It will be a year or more before he could fit either of those. The S/O of the 7.2FX is 24.9" and the S/O of the KDR 1000 is 24.6." The most he can standover flat-footed is 22." He's a very steady rider, but I don't want him to have to be on tiptoes to avoid crushing my grandchildren on the top tube.

bbattle

Then perhaps the 20" Frantic will work. At some point, it'll be good to teach him to dismount from the saddle when stopping. That will also allow the seat to be raised to a proper height; far too many kids ride with the seat way too low. Uncomfortable and inefficient. Not saying next week or even next year, but when he's more comfortable riding and more confident.

SoonerLater

Instead of buying a 20" single speed like this one and throwing away the wheels, I'm leaning toward building up a geared bike from a no-suspension 20" single speed bmx frame. That is, if I can achieve a decent result without overspending. Right now I'm stuck on these points:

(1) Is it better/easier/cheaper to install an internally geared rear hub (example: Shimano Nexus 8 speed) or some sort of derailer? The single speeds all have horizontal dropouts and no derailer hanger, so I'm not sure how I'd attach a derailer, but surely there's a way.

(2) If I use a hub, I'll have to build the rear wheel. Most of the 20" (406) wheels seem to have a 28 spoke design, but all the Nexus hubs I've found so far are setup for a 36 spoke wheel. I know that people have put Nexus hubs on 20" bikes, but so far i can't find a parts source (and haven't finished looking yet). I'd be wanting some reasonably lightweight wheels and smooth, low rolling resistance tires. If I go with a derailer, I'd probably buy the wheels and tires from some recumbent dealer which stocks light, quality 406 wheels and tires.

(3) Neither this Giant Frantic, nor any of the other single speeds I've seen have front brakes, which means that the front fork has no brake hangers. I'd want to install a front brake, but I don't know how short of finding a fork separate from the frame.

GamecockTaco

search around and you could likely find one of these: 2005 Giant 125. 7 speeds, 20" wheels, no shocks.


This is what my 6 year old has. Some gears, but not too many to overwhelm him in the choices.

SoonerLater

So the 2005 model had no shocks, front or rear?

masiman

Tis true, the geared Giant 125, 2005 model year was the last year they made them suspensionless. We have one them. I am quite pleased with it. It has an articulating stem that allows you to adjust the cockpit to fit, 7 speeds, SRAM shifting, decent saddle. I bought some high pressure 20" recumbent tires to help lower rolling resistance and let us get in longer rides. Not much off roading being done so this works out okay for now.

In my earlier comment about fork swapping, I meant that you could likely accomplish this by getting a hard tail geared bike and then find a rigid fork to fit that. This might be the easiest option in that there are plenty of both types of bikes like these out there. Just not very many non-suspended geared bikes. Those Isla's do look very nice though. I am toying with ordering their 24" for my oldest in the next year or two.

bbattle

I got my granddaughter the 2006 Giant 225; it has 24" wheels and no suspension. I don't understand the love affair with suspensions for kids but they must be in demand because that's pretty much all they offer. The 2007 model looks the same but has front suspension.




Regarding the fork swapping, it should be quite possible to get the 2007 Giant MTX 125 20" mtn. bike for boys then order a 2005 front fork for a MTX 125. (the 2006 MTX 125 has a suspension fork.)

bikejack

WHY?

A light weight single speed will teach him to spin and to ride a bike using the full range of his muscles and coordination better than plodding along bashing gears.

SoonerLater

Ummm... because the bike that he's been riding for the past 14 mos. or so is geared (7 speed). He rides the roads and paved trails with me and the rest of the family. I pull the 2.5 year old in a two wheeler and the 5 year old rides a single-wheel pedal trailer behind mom. The family averages 10-12 mph and we tend to go about 15-20 miles per ride. Frankly, it never occurred to me that it would be possible for him to keep up riding a single speed. He uses lower gears for going up hill and higher gears for flat areas where he likes to show his mom that he's the fastest.

Maybe I'll take him for a ride on a single speed and see how he reacts.

JackJ

I've built a few 406 wheels using the Sun CR18 rim, which is available in 36h. My LBS sells 'em for about $24, ordered from Quality Bike Parts, I believe.

I think the Nexus 8 is a good option to consider, but there's a price and weight penalty. And it's axle spacing is 132 mm, so I'm not certain you could get it to fit the type of frame you have in mind. Sturmey Archer makes an 8sp hub that is, I believe, 120 mm, but I've heard some complaints about shifting performance.

Jack

bikejack

He sounds strong and enthusiastic but are you sure you're not confusing operating gears with using gears.

I see a lot of kids operating gears on heavy bikes, they throw their bodyweight forward and bounce to get the bike going regardless of the gear chosen, the bikes are so heavy and the power output of juveniles is so minimal there is no chance of them developing good technique as a rider as all effort is in overcoming the weight of the bike.

My youngest has just moved onto geared bikes at 12yrs, he has been riding lightweight single speeds for road track bmx and mtb since he was five as did his brother.

The lightweight small geared bikes have taught him to spin to go fast and to use his muscles and body position to climb efficiently.

An observation of both boys when they first moved to geared bikes was that they instinctively geared down to accelerate by spinning and they maintained their position on the bike using the whole body to apply power or as Keith Bontrager put it 'dynamic riding position in and out of the seat'. This hasn't been drummed into them this is just how they ride bikes as the bikes they have ridden have allowed them to develop proper technique.

Hard to explain in a short forum reply but a lightweight bike allows the child (he is only 6 right?) to command and respond to the bike and conditions where a heavy bike commands exertion. The small single speed makes riding and technique the main focus not the changing of gears.

Hope this is of help, good luck with your rider.

masiman

I think the geared or single speed decision is more than a training question. There are definite pros and cons with both approaches. For off road riding they can be really great. But I would rather they had a geared bike if road riding were what they did mostly. But a geared bike should not come until they are very comfortable on a single speed. Gears and hand brakes add a lot of complications. Different kids can handle it at different times. 6 sounds early but only you know your child well enough to make that decision.

SoonerLater

Hmmm... much food for thought. My little guy turned 7 a week ago. Perhaps the smartest thing is to get a really lightweight single speed and let him ride it. I can always convert it to a geared bike later. I just assumed that he'd need the gears to continue riding 15-20 miles at 10-12 mph, but I could be wrong. I guess I'll try and see what happens.