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Choose wisely - recumbents vary a lot (long)

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Recumbent What IS that thing?! Recumbents may be odd looking, but they have many advantages over a "wedgie" bicycle. Discuss the in's and out's recumbent lifestyle in the recumbent forum.

Choose wisely - recumbents vary a lot (long)

Old 07-20-11, 02:47 AM
  #1  
velopaul
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Choose wisely - recumbents vary a lot (long)

Policy statement : "I love my bents... BUT"

If you're thinking of 'going recumbent' don't rush in. DFs (diamond frame road bikes) don't vary much and basically you get what you pay for. It's different with recumbents. The designs vary hugely and some designs are very sensitive to terrain. That's a polite way of saying the only way they'll climb a hill is by being towed up on a rope.

This opinion is mine alone of course and it's based on about 10 years of owning recumbents and buying and selling bents to try to find one that really lives up to the recumbent hype. I won't embarrass the manufacturers of bikes I've owned that I've sold pretty much in disgust. I'll just make the following observations.

If you want to tour or commute and you're not concerned about ultimate speed, there is no better choice than a good trike. A good trike will not be heavy and it will be stable at speeds of at least 85 kph (50mph) That speed will be easily reached on steep descents. If you do plan on riding steep descents get disc brakes because rim brakes will melt/blow a tyre after a few hard braking efforts on a mountain descent.
On a trike with a dual drive or other wide range gearing you can nearly climb walls.

"Bents can't climb." You'll hear that a lot.It's true - most won't. The issue of rider power is often raised and it's a red herring. For a given wattage and assuming that a DF rider and a bent rider are equally acclimatised, the bent rider will be slower up hills on 90% of recumbent designs.

Reviews on budget (Velo Vol.40 No.11 Aug2011) DFs show a BB deflection of less than 1mm under a 100lb (45kg) crank loading. One of the stiffest recumbents built is the P-38 (which I own.) The BB deflection created by putting high (unmeasured) pressure on one vertical crank is 3mm. P-38s have a reputation for climbing well.

Do that with a trike and expect to see more than 20mm. A high quality Optima touring bike like the Lynx shows 8mm. Strangely (to me) the FWD performer low racer measured zero! This was reflected in good climbing. Likewise the Cruzbike FWD MBB SWB measured zero.

Mesh seats absorb power and I've demonstrated this using a TACX trainer that measured power. By making the P-38 seat rigid, power went up more than 15% (wattage.)

My Metaphysic high racer has about the same flex as my P-38 but climbs faster and I attribute that to the hardshell seat and higher BB.

It's said that all human power speed records are made by recumbents. This is true FAIRED recumbents. An unfaired recumbent is only about 2 kph faster aerodynamically than a DF time trial bike. You don't have to ride a bent to be fast and the TT bike will climb better than any recumbent. Of course the TT bike is agonisingly uncomfortable and I don't know of anyone that could ride in a severe tuck position for 8 hours.

As a potential recumbent rider, unless you can average speeds of 25 kph (15mph) or more, the aero advantage of a recumbent isn't going to help you unless there's a head wind or all your rides are downhill.

So don't buy a recumbent for speed unless you can afford a design that IS fast and you're fit enough to take advantage of it. The list is fairly short and most are expensive. I'd show my bias if I named names. Do buy a recumbent for safety, comfort and fun.

Feel free to email me for what can only be my opinion.

PS: I ride a single speed DF around town because I think it's a better design for that particular job. "Horses for courses... or bents for events!"
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Old 07-20-11, 08:54 AM
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Yes, recumbents do vary a lot, which I think is a good thing! On the other hand, because of this it is very hard to "choose wisely". 12 years ago, I wasted a lot of time trying to choose wisely. I hemmed and hawed and asked a thousand questions on recumbent forums trying to choose the exact right 'bent for me. The thing is, it's pretty dang tough to figure it out without riding 'bents.
I started with a suspended SWB w/dual 20" wheels, then bought a dual 26" SWB, then a LWB with 20" front and 26" rear wheels and am now on a dual 26" LWB 'bent. I'm very happy with what I'm on now, but don't disparage the journey to get here. (And even though the OP finds an upright works best for commuting, I love my LWB for commuting!)
My advice would be to test ride as many bents as you are able, but then just hold your nose and buy one.
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Old 07-20-11, 11:30 AM
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And, to hear from riders all over the world there's always BentRider Online.
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Old 07-20-11, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
And, to hear from riders all over the world there's always BentRider Online.
Nice!
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Old 07-21-11, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
And, to hear from riders all over the world there's always BentRider Online.
+1

BROL also has a section just for trikes as well
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Old 07-21-11, 10:03 PM
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The beauty of recumbents is the fact there are so many different layouts. Unlike the DF elitist that are trying to perserve the antique 1885 "safety" bike design. One only needs to pick the bent that fits their riding lifestyle.
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Old 07-24-11, 01:46 PM
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I've owned a SWB USS which I really loved for my commuting. A tadpole Trike with rear suspension (which I started my current tour on - until an sob ran it over in a parking lot), now I'm on a CLWB OSS which I really, really like - except for the OSS, which I think my SWB USS was less twitchy. But the OSS is better overall for touring.

There are so many different styles of recumbent out there, test ride, test ride, test ride. And then you'll still likely find something that could have been done better.
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Old 09-12-11, 08:49 AM
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There is discussion of BB deflection. My Rans Straus LE actually has 5 tubes all running to the BB. With that may tubes postioning the BB, I would suggest the BB the defletion on my LE must be near zero.
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Old 09-12-11, 09:38 AM
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VeloPauls' original post is both very informative and useful.
(Of course I'd say that, since I agree with his findings!)

However, VeloPaul failed to mention his motivation, his reason for riding a recumbent bicycle.

There are many valid reasons for, "going 'bent" and I'm interested in VeloPauls' reason.

For example, my excuse for riding my recumbent is physical.
The speed is a plus, but the comfort is the primary reason for me.

My trusty Cruzbike Sofrider climbs nicely and I average around 17mph on the local
hilly country roads.
Unlike VeloPaul, I can deflect my Cruzbikes' bottom bracket a little, if I choose to.
It takes a lot of torque, a lot of power put into the handlebars, but it's possible!

Good post though: thank you.
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Old 09-12-11, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
And, to hear from riders all over the world there's always BentRider Online.
You're a bit late with the advertising; It used to be a good, informative site until the humorless comic began stifling any controversy and coveting DF hate.
All that's left is boring, "why we are better than everyone else", blather and flaming of any one who disagrees. And if you don't agree with "back to the caves" green extremist agenda then you won't be welcome. Diversity is not welcome on that site and free-thinking is discouraged. There are a number of knowledgeable people left, but you can find them on BF and Trike Doctor as well without being subjected to picking gems out of pure horse-puckey!
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Old 09-12-11, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by AlexZ View Post
You're a bit late with the advertising; It used to be a good, informative site until the humorless comic began stifling any controversy and coveting DF hate.
All that's left is boring, "why we are better than everyone else", blather and flaming of any one who disagrees. And if you don't agree with "back to the caves" green extremist agenda then you won't be welcome. Diversity is not welcome on that site and free-thinking is discouraged. There are a number of knowledgeable people left, but you can find them on BF and Trike Doctor as well without being subjected to picking gems out of pure horse-puckey!
says the guy who got banned.
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Old 09-12-11, 08:57 PM
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Precisely! Thinking is not needed, or wanted.
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Old 09-13-11, 12:06 AM
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Wow - I must not be reading the right threads? least, on the trike forum I honestly do not see any of that - least not to me anyhow...
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Old 09-16-11, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
And, to hear from riders all over the world there's always BentRider Online.
Yes there was a time it was truly a very nice site with a lot of very nice and informed enthusiasts. However, sadly that is no longer the case. There is a lot of controversy and ill feelings there now. Would love and hope for it to change.
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Old 09-16-11, 08:34 PM
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velopauls favorite bike.

Definitely one of the fastest I have ridden

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Old 09-17-11, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by scarabeoguy View Post
Yes there was a time it was truly a very nice site with a lot of very nice and informed enthusiasts. However, sadly that is no longer the case. There is a lot of controversy and ill feelings there now. Would love and hope for it to change.
I wish I knew where the above is coming from? I've been in the "trike sub forum" for some eight months now. It's a bunch of knowledgeable trike owners with lots of into. Personally, I see BROL being more laid back than BF
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Old 09-17-11, 08:34 PM
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Policy statement : "I love my bents... BUTT" Yeah BUTT! My first bent was a Tour Easy. Talked to Gardner(RIP) back in "83" when i ordered it and I rode it today. Still get "cool bike" and head turns 28 years later.
Get a bent! I don't care if you get it from the progressive LBS, Craig's list, or build it yourself. Get BENT! It's the bike of the future...here today!
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Old 09-19-11, 03:26 AM
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Long wheel based recumbents

Yes, long wheel base recumbents like the Tour easy and Xstream have no BB flex but can have some frame flex. It's difficult to design them to be lightweight (but not impossible.)

I've never owned one (freight costs from the US would kill me) but my theory is that they will climb well. Technically the lower BB in relation to the seat reduces the potential power and seat angles on these bents is usually fairly upright.

Without riding one I'm not qualified to comment much. I'd expect ride comfort to be very good. The RANS Xstream performed well in RAAM.

'Speed' is very relative to what you want to do. You can smell the flowers in comfort, glide along and average 18 kph or rattle over the chipseal on a racing recumbent and average 30 kph (I'm talking old farts averages here!) There's a time and place for both. My point is that there is much more potential speed variation in recumbents designs than DFs and obviously a lot of bent owners like it that way.
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Old 09-19-11, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by scarabeoguy View Post
Yes there was a time it was truly a very nice site with a lot of very nice and informed enthusiasts. However, sadly that is no longer the case. There is a lot of controversy and ill feelings there now. Would love and hope for it to change.
BROL is one of the more civilised Forums and there's not much aggression. It has been for me one of the most useful Forums to engage with experienced bent riders. There are lots of little annoyances in all walks of life, not just Internet Forums, but really none of them matter and if you don't like or agree with a poster, just ignore them. It's rare for members to play the man and not the ball.

As for the humorless administrator - cut the guy some slack, he's got a personal life to deal with like all of us and sometimes that can be stressful. I appreciate the Forum - I could live without it, but it enriches my recumbent experience.
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Old 10-03-11, 11:54 PM
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For a given wattage and assuming that a DF rider and a bent rider are equally acclimatised, the bent rider will be slower up hills on 90% of recumbent designs.
not me. I am competitive in climbing events on my 25lb Corsa that I wouldn't even think about entering on an upright of any kind. I can sit on an aerobic/lactic flush balance and feather my effort around my threshold without nausea or 'cracking' at a level I just can't train into on the DF. I've beaten at least 2 cat 3 guys that have classified themselves as "climbing specialists".
I've never done any formal training, no power meter, no heart rate monitor, etc and if you saw me, you'd probably label me as a Fred. Aside from my small frame, burning desire to ride at my limit almost 100% of the time, and enough free time to get in 10 hours a week, I'm not really special or athletically gifted in any way. I even have minor knee issues that prevent me from pushing my limits more. (I had them long before bent riding. they're actually significantly better the last few years, but still nagging at times)

To put it simply, I love climbing on my bent. I do it all the time. Seems like the reason most people don't climb well is because they avoid it. "Horses for courses" seems to be synonymous with "don't push the limits"

T
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Old 10-10-11, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tctdvm View Post
not me. I am competitive in climbing events on my 25lb Corsa ....snip....Aside from my small frame,....snip..... Seems like the reason most people don't climb well is because they avoid it. "Horses for courses" seems to be synonymous with "don't push the limits"

T
Frame flex is reduced for shorter riders as the boom is extended less. It's also reduced for riders using a higher cadence and is not so critical where gradients are 7% or less.

It would be easy to accuse me of blaming the bikes or being a bad climber and that would be to completely miss the point of my Post.
I climb reasonably well on my P-38 - it has a reputation as a climber - not me, IT.
I climbed worse on lighter more aerodynamic recumbents that lacked frame stiffness.
I climb very well on my Metaphysic, to the point that I can match DF riders my own age on all +gradients.

The aim of my Post was to prevent the enthusiasm among recumbents owners from costing someone a lot of money and disappointment when they realise they've spent $5000 on a light recumbent and they're getting dropped on every hill.

A few recumbents transfer power efficiently - the majority don't.
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Old 10-10-11, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by velopaul View Post
Yes, long wheel base recumbents like the Tour easy and Xstream have no BB flex but can have some frame flex. It's difficult to design them to be lightweight (but not impossible.)

I've never owned one (freight costs from the US would kill me) but my theory is that they will climb well. Technically the lower BB in relation to the seat reduces the potential power and seat angles on these bents is usually fairly upright.

Without riding one I'm not qualified to comment much. I'd expect ride comfort to be very good. The RANS Xstream performed well in RAAM.

'Speed' is very relative to what you want to do. You can smell the flowers in comfort, glide along and average 18 kph or rattle over the chipseal on a racing recumbent and average 30 kph (I'm talking old farts averages here!) There's a time and place for both. My point is that there is much more potential speed variation in recumbents designs than DFs and obviously a lot of bent owners like it that way.
Whether, or not, an LWB climbs well depends on the bike. My Stratus LE doesn't feel like it has much BB deflection, but having my feet out front does give pedal steer, which I CAN feel. My Formula LE does better, but I'm afraid that it still has the same engine that needs a drastic overhaul. When I go over a rough section on the Stratus, I can feel the frame flexing like a long steel beam.
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Old 10-10-11, 07:51 PM
  #23  
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I agree with your basic premise, velopaul. Most recumbents are over-sold for speed. The majority are not faster than uprights, unless you're comparing them to mountain bikes. The worst offender was Bike-E, whose ads likened their products to racing 'bents and streamliners. Nothing was further from the truth, of course. The average recumbent, and I can use RANS as a good example, may have a very small aero advantage on flat ground, but can't climb nearly as well as an upright; so in any kind of mixed terrain they end up being slower. It's not until you get into the racing models that the aero advantage starts making up for the climbing deficit; and only a few of those cut into the climbing deficit.

As fast as my Baron is, I could never get more than mediocre climbing out of it. Some people can fly up hills with them, though. My guess is that at my weight it takes too much power to go up hills, and the extra power is causing more deflection than a lighter person would experience.
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Old 10-10-11, 07:56 PM
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Bryan at BROL will tolerate disagreement, even heresy; but he absolutely doesn't allow disrespectful language. Insult or harass fellow board members and you'll be given a 'time out.' Get too many discipline points on your record and you're gone.
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Old 10-11-11, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
Bryan at BROL will tolerate disagreement, even heresy; but he absolutely doesn't allow disrespectful language. Insult or harass fellow board members and you'll be given a 'time out.' Get too many discipline points on your record and you're gone.
Nonsense. The humorless comic won't tolerate any disagreement with green agenda or liberal views ! Disrespect has nothing to do with it. My "big sin" was providing a link to a news story on endangered eagles being killed by idiotic wind turbines! Not only did he not explain that but he edited the link out of the post. Which in my view makes him an intolerant liar!
That's OK though, that site is his...It's like being in his living room and quite frankly it disgusted me.
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