grolby

Rather than actually quote an respond to the wall of text you wrote, I'll pull this out because it kind of perfectly illustrates my point. You think that your point-of-view represents objective reality, when by definition it does not. Why should I bother to "refute" your belief that DT shifters are better? I don't care, because the market has spoken. Integrated shifters won. You argue that this is because so many riders today haven't used them, but there WAS a transition point, when Shimano STI became available and people could choose whichever they felt was best. And DT shifters disappeared practically overnight because STI was such a no-brainer for pretty much everyone. I'll repeat myself: the particular set of truths you're carrying around in your head are not in fact a better match to objective reality than what's in my head, or in the heads of the masses. You are not the Only Sane Man. You're just another guy with an opinion.

Three closing statements, here. First, dare to dream, I guess. Second, there's a major element both here and in your rant against discs of missing the forests for the trees. The weight of a set of integrated shifters is a major complaint for you (though you overestimate the weight delta there), but compared to when they first came out 25 years ago, road bikes are considerably lighter at all price points. Development and improvement is not as simple or straightforward as just continually making every small part lighter and lighter and thinking that's the only virtuous increment. Big picture.

Finally, and this one gets it's own paragraph because I think it's important: you may not be concerned with things like having to reach a bit to change the gears, or not having indexing. But literally millions of people ARE concerned with these things, and making the operation of a bicycle easier makes cycling much more accessible to them. DT shifters are mechanically simpler, but much more complex to use and that's a lot more important if you care at all about making the sport less intimidating to newcomers. The popularity of fixed gear and single speed bikes isn't really because people care about mechanical elegance, it's because their mechanical simplicity pays off directly in functional simplicity: just get on and pedal, don't worry about anything else. The mechanical simplicity of downtube shifters doesn't pay off in the same way, and lo and behold, they aren't popular. People aren't going to reject changes that have made their lives easier. And it will work the same way with disc brakes. People are going to love the lighter, easier operation of the levers, and that will be that. Brian Ratliff really put it well: the majority of people don't care so much about the bikes, they care about riding.

Stucky

Oooo-K, here's the problem:

So you don't care which is actually better? Why? "The market has spoken" determines what you ride, and which is better? Is the market speaking about disc brakes, too? Funny...I don't hear it; instead I hear the marketers saying "Yeah, yeah, buy this! It's new! You don't want 'yesterday's technology'! Be cool!!".

I represent a part of the market, as do a lot of other C&Vers.....and they don';t seem to be making what we want, so we have to buy old stuff. I'll bet a few years ago, you'd be saying the same thing to people who were desirous of having fixies, too- "Aww, what are you kidding? The market has spoken! Everyone who's anyone wants more crap and high-tech junk on their bikes, so they can be completely removed from the mechanical processes of cycling! HAhahaha! You think that bicycle companies would ever waste their time manufacturing and selling 100 year-old technology fixies?! HAhahahah! Yeah, it could happen!".

Stucky

Your confusing what benefits you, with what you want.

Uh, no. Why do you say the bike keeps getting better? What is better about having to swing levers 5 times to get to the gear that you want, instead of simply moving a lever once? What is better about springs and cams and ratchets being put between your fingers and the derailers; where formerly, it was just the direct movement of a cable via a lever? What is better about a Cf bike that weighs 21 lbs vs. a steel bike that weighs 18? What is better about putting motorcycle brakes on a bicycle, which spends half of it's time going 15MPH? (Oh, you need them because your better carbon wheels are actually worse when it comes to braking, so we have to have different brakes to enable you to stop with your 'better' wheels?)


Really? Hmmm...hate to tell ya, but I put a compact FSA Vero crank on my old Klein..... Again, while I like some of the aesthetics of the newer bikes (Hence, me owning a venge), i prefer the simple directness of the older bikes; they accomplish what they were designed to do via the simplest- and hence, the most elegant and efficient means. Combine the aesthetics of some modern bikes, and simplicity of the old bikes, then we'd truly have some bikes!

Maybe they'll give that a try, after Di2 becomes so common that the glitz wears off, and people decide that being able to fully control their derailers as they please, and to be able to feel what they are doing directly through a cable, is better than using wires and switches and computers and servos to accomplish the same thing.....

elcruxio

Well, I'd have to say it's the indexing. I've had the displeasure of using DT shifters and it's really not a good system. Indexed shifters is really a fire and forget system. You don't really have to think about shifting like you need to with a DT shifter. I can anticipate you pointing out that back in the day people learned to use their shifters and DT shifters is a skill yadda yadda yadda. But that's kinda the point as well. What is more stupid than having parts in a bicycle which require a lot of practice to make them efficient. And DT shifters require a ton of training to even make them bearable to use. And that's with 5 speeds with relatively thick chain and wide cog spacings. Can't really imagine the infernal expericence one would have with 10 speeds and DT's.

Also, shimano brifters have trim for the front derailer so there's that debunked.
And you can actually go through a 10 speed cassette with 3 pushes of the lever so it's really not as bad as it sounds. That of course when you're going to a smaller gear. Can't really see the need to go through the whole cassette when going to a higher gear.
AAAAND if you want to do a sprint it's really rather nice to be able to shift while in the drops and holding the handlebars.
But it really sounds to me that you need electronic shifting. Perfect performance all the time and auto trim. And you don't have to push a button multiple times to

Aerodynamics mostly. As the science tells us, frame and bike aerodynamics is really much more important than weight. Especially if we're only talking 3lbs. Having a bit heavier wheelset and frame to get maximized aero benefits is actually very worth it.

Well, it's nice to have better brakes for the instances you're going 40-60mph. I could of course put to sets of brakes, like rim brakes for the light braking stuff and discs for the heavier braking, but maybe I'll just put discs since those handle both braking as well as rim brakes, if not better. Also, when I build a wheel I usually never need to true it. My wheels last. It puts a pretty big dump on my parade when I have to replace a rim due to wear.
Also, carbon wheels because of aerodynamics. If you can get the full aero benefit (which will supposedly only increase with the loss of the braking surface in rims) with awesome braking, I'm all for it.

cale

Your side of the market isn't bringing in money. You should be grateful that Shimano treats their customers the way Toyota does and takes care of their needs long after the technology is passed over. Otherwise, you'd be "stuck" with a broken bike. The pitance that most C&Vers are bringing to the sport is hardly enough to warrant their inclusion in marketing plans.

Stucky, the world marches onward. You can't expect it to stop because you've found the best spot to rest. Good luck.

sleepy

I have a suspicion that 10 years from now you might be parroting Stucky with the simplicity and repairability of Carbon Fiber and the ease of a 10-11 speed derailleur.

Electronic shifting sounds awesome. But there is something nice to be said about mechanical parts on a bicycle. And for regular schmoes like us, the beauty of not having to upgrade to an entirely new hub system or BB interface to keep up with the Dopey Joneses.

elcruxio

But no one really has to upgrade do they? Nothing needs to be done to the current bikes people are riding. And even 25% of new bikes offer discs. And I'm dead sure they will still be making good quality caliper brakes, rims and hubs 10 years from now. They even make cantilever brakes these days, and we all know how much those old fashioned things suck... There's even a long arm caliper on the market today.

Discs only really concern people who want to buy their next bike with discs (such as me)
Not even people buying a new bike need to be afraid of the industry cramming discs down anyone's throat because of the 25% portion of disc bikes. There is literally no risk in this.

SHBR

Probably less than 1% of the total market.

Really, this is a symptom of larger societal problem. The masses have become too dependent on technology to sort out their lives. This leads to unintended consequences of technology, like having 1000 channels of crap on television. The masses blindly follow whatever the marketing gods tell them to buy. Independent thought is rare.

In a perfect world, we could all make our own products independently (3D printing) without having to rely on so called "expert opinions" and wasteful mass production manufacturing.

The main drive for this change is the profit motive, all that equipment has to be replaced, not just on the consumer side, but also on the production side. Environmental consequences be damned.

As far as the debate between disks and rim brakes, I would say that rim brakes are mature technology, there isn't much room for improvement. In my experience, even low cost rim brakes operate quite effectively, I can't say the same for cheap disk brakes.

Many here argue that improvement isn't necessary. I'm undecided. Rim brakes are cheap and work well enough for my purposes. On the other hand, disk brakes are evolving technology, and I'm fairly sure there will be technology in the future that can vastly exceed what we have today.

grolby

That's not what I said, but maybe I should have been more clear. I don't care to argue with you over which is better, because your opinion is unmoored from reality. I thought it was obvious, but I guess I failed to communicate that I do use integrated shifters and I use them because they are clearly superior. And that essentially everyone else agrees with me. I won't argue that there are nice things about DT shifters. I've used them and I have some fondness for them. But they're outdated and more complicated to use.

You ascribe magical thought-controlling properties to marketing that just aren't real. Marketing matters, and it can affect the way people feel about products, but its ability to make people into zombies who go out and purchase the newest hotness is overrated by people like you.

And while you really don't seem to understand why fixed gears are popular and downtube shifters are not, even though I already explained it, you're right about one thing: most people are indeed not interested in being "connected to the mechanical experience of cycling." The more the mechanical operation of the bike disappears, the better.

mercator

Methinks Stucky just likes to argue, the quality of the argument isn't that important.

cale

I won't argue your point.

alathIN

Wow, nothing generates a firestorm like a new disc brakes post. This is almost as bad as the 9mm vs. .45 acp debates on *** forums.

I just got a new disc brake road bike for commuting/touring and I do appreciate the instant stop characteristics. Also have a greater sense of security given the amount of load on my bike - I'm not small, plus I usually commute with a gym bag, work clothes, and a whole day's worth of food. It may be purely psychological, or one of those "feeling of confidence" things, but I feel I can stop a lot faster with the discs.

I also participate in triathlons. I was planning to keep my old alloy caliper brakes road bike for that purpose, but now leaning toward selling it. I figure I will just compensate for the additional 150 grams of disc brake weight with my massive power output

Psimet2001 

I have to laugh otherwise I'd cry. I'm starting to think that many of you have this vision of what the "big back bicycle industry" is really like as being this room of suits trying to figure out how to drive profits and only consulting the marketing department for ideas. How they somehow make this plan and determine that all that will drive it is going to be some narrative that they have to make up to "pull the wool over everyone's eyes" otherwise no "intelligent" person would ever "fall" for it.

Sweet geebus that's a depressing world to imagine exists.

Here's the reality though - it's a small handful of guys and gals. Usually in their 40's/50's - super skinny - trying to carry off whatever clothing the hipsters are trying to pass off these days. Some have some serious personal issues, career stress, marriages falling apart, too much travel, etc. most love riding and racing their bikes. Honestly. Lots.

The discussions don't start with numbers. They start with engineers. The engineers, guess what, also ride and race....a lot. They come up with ideas. They make prototypes. They ride them. They test them. They race them. They fix them. They stack up 'innovations' as they see it. Product managers help figure out how to stack those innovations in a way that makes sense and try to stagger when and how they are going to be introduced to the market. How fast can production come up to speed? How long will testing take? Do we need to refine this more?

They talk about model years (MY) in the late teens to 20's as product comes down a long development path.

The way you guys talk it was simply a marketing idea that someone thought would trick the market and they cobbled something together overnight to steal market share from their competitors so they could be the first one and then they relied on marketing to make it happen.

The real people are guys and gals that I get to BS with before a race, put a medal around their necks afterwards and hand some prize money to - not because they have some secret component on their bike that made it possible but because they are fabulous riders and racers who have a long established record of being among the best in their field. These real people often hand me back the money and tell me to donate it to a charity.

These are real people who are a part of our community that would instantly squish up their nose at reading 90% of what's been put into this thread. What they love is bikes. They love making parts for bikes and they are good at it. They honestly could care less if a rider wants to stick with their old downtube bike, they'd think that was awesome and would probably pull out 4 or 5 of their own bikes to show you how much they love theirs as well.

So....if you're one of the people sitting there and thinking, "it's an answer to a problem that didn't exist! it's unfair that 'they' are pushing this 'technology' down my throat!" then I think you probably need to step back and realize it's not always about you. You can continue to ride whatever the f you want to ride. Not all new products succeed in the long run and not all ones that do are welcomed with high acceptance. I personally remember thinking twist shift was the stupidest thing ever. I still think it is, but there's a really big hometown company that was built on it.

At some point you're going to have to realize that these are in fact some of the products and product changes that people really do want and that the fact that you don't agree with it, well....is meaningless. Disc brakes are here to stay for a while at least. If you hate it...just move on. Take your toys and go play somewhere else. Just enjoy the ride.

grolby

+1. What a weird conception of the bike industry people have. It's not a bunch of suits smoking cigars in a darkened room.

UnfilteredDregs

That's the financial industry!!!!!!!

rideBjj

Has anyone considered the idea of doing just a disc in the front? 70% or more of your stopping power comes from the front. If you really needed disc functionality because of your riding style / environment, then doing it this way would mean you would only need a new fork / lever and front wheel. You could keep your same old frame and rear wheel(s).

cale

Where there's a will, there's a way. You may be on to something. Instead of the new lever, you'd get a brake pedal! Haha

cale

Really? I thought it was Education!

cale

Sorry, I had to condense your excellent snapshot of an industry scullion. I hope others read what you write because we all have families, or ourselves and loved ones, to feed and shelter. Those fortunate enough to have the talent and passion to carry on the challenging business of bicycle manufacturing and sales, should be recognized as champions of cyclists, not a bunch of scheming leaches.

The bottom line is that "enemies" are extremely useful on Internet forums because the lack of information is taken as supportive of theories. "Why should the theorists bother," I write sarcastically, "with the evidence of overwhelming consumer support?"

hairnet

I believe a lot of MTB people did that early on. I have done that for customers that wanted upgrade their forks and get rid of their cantilever or V brakes.

Dave Mayer

Several paragraphs of platitudes. Everything you've written about the genesis of 'innovation' in the bike industry must refer to opposite-land. I am an engineer, and I found it all hilarous.

This is how graduate engineers sort out: the A students take up research jobs and spawn valuable patents. The B students become the captains of industry. The C students become industry salesmen. But I don't know any new engineer who could afford to lower themselves to work in the bike industry.

The bike industry cannot afford first or even second-rate engineering. The big 3 component manufacturers have some engineering horsepower, but smaller than this, they fly by the seat of your pants. The wholesale and retail side of the biz pays such pathetic wages that I don't know how it even functions.

Ideas in the bike industry start with perceived market demand. That is, anticipating what the next customer will buy. Right now, there is a flood of ex-MTB's transitioning to road bikes. The Lance effect, Gran Fondo's, riding as the next golf.... whatever. These converts walk into a store and they are attracted by components and design features that they feel comfortable with. Such as sloping top tubes, suspension and disk brakes. All of which are unnecessary on real road bikes.

In the early 1990s, road bikes were an endangered species. Back then, I had industry reps tell me that road riding was utterly dead, and the next frontier in the industry was full suspension. And that I absolutely needed a full-suspension mouintain bike, for all forms of riding.

As far as the industry goes, road riding will be dead once again - at some point in the future. It all goes in cycles; fads are adopted and then shed in an attempt to maintain sales churn. Disk brakes are the latest in this.

cale

I would never allow Internet examination of my work. Your deadly industry portrayal illustrating my point with enthusiasm.

Dave Mayer

This makes no sense. What does 'Internet examination' refer to? Gramatically, your last sentence better reads: "Your deadly industry portrayal illustrates my point with enthusiasm". But does 'deadly' refer to inappropriate savage sarcasm, or well-grounded criticism? And does 'enthusiasm' indicate support for my point?

Engineers prefer well-constructed, clear text. But they still cannot afford to work in the bike industry.

cale

Your efforts to soil others raises a scent I rather not encourage.

Deadly? Perhaps I should have said damning, but I think you were actually more caustic than damning.

StephenH

Golly, I just got another million dollar idea! Reading the last page of this claptrap (pardon me for skipping the first 11 pages), it strikes me, why not just put BOTH disk brakes and rim brakes on a bike, and make everyone happy? Have a little "Disk/Rim" button on the handlebars you can switch as needed. Then if some doofus rides up and says "Disks are for losers, dork!", I can say, "Neener neener, I have the button set on 'rim brakes' today!" Now, some may object to the weight, but goodness knows, my bike's got about 10 extra pounds it could stand to lose anyway, and I've got about 50, so a few extra ounces here and there won't make any difference. Then if you're riding and it's wet, you just flip the button to "disks" or if you sense some metal fatigue creeping into the spokes or fork ,you flip it over to "rim" and all is well. Needless to say, this bike would appeal to ALL discerning cyclists, and the brake manufacturers would double their sales in the process. And, for the really stuck-in-the-stone-age riders out there, you could make a single-speed and build a coaster brake in as well! And on the front, one of those little brakes that rubs on the tire itself...