cale

No data for you.

Dave Mayer

Sigh.... Why would anyone want to carry around the extra bulk of the beefed-up frame required to accomodate disk brake mounts? And a significantly heavier fork, which is required because the transmission path of the braking forces generated by disks?

Does the beefier fork cause a harsher ride? Probably?

StephenH

Neener neener, I have the button set on 'rim brakes' today!

cale

I have one word for you son, mineraloil.

Psimet2001 

Hi Dave! I too am an engineer! Fun, aint it?

OK...now...where to start...

This wasn't something I dreamed up. I was specifically referring to SRAM - who is headquartered here locally. I know quite a few of the engineers personally. Also know the head of marketing. He lives about 10 miles up the road and enjoys spending his time getting to know every single female he runs across. Great guy and I like him a lot. He even lets me hand up his water bottles in feed zones at races when I'm one of the only friendly faces around.

1. I can assure you that he is more concerned with who is going out for drinks that night than he is on conspiring about which new product will fleece the industry. He knows his stuff and does a great job at controlling media, schmoozing pro riders, handling sponsorships, coming up with new product packaging, logos, names and materials...but he's not trying to get everyone to go out and buy disc. FWIW, he still rides rim brakes.

2. They have plenty of top engineers. I have watched as a lot of extremely talented engineering friends who have gone through their lengthy vetting for employment have been turned down for falling short. These have been engineering managers in typical industrial manufacturing companies common in the Chicago market. Turns out the average cycling enthusiast is well educated and upper middle class. There's an overabundance of engineers who want to work for bike companies. The average amount of engineering talent in a general bike company is staggering.

I even got to sit through an engineering meeting that was held at a restaurant. We were all at a nearby UCI race and the product manager used it as an opportunity to get his engineers together. When he saw a friendly face while looking for seating he popped a squat next to me and we shared some stories about the racing. When his staff showed up they had their meeting. Cool stuff. Way more organized than I have ever seen at any other consumer products company. Talking about many generations of products down the line.

We are also lucky enough to see the demo and test products that they typically bring to local races. A few key engineers race locally. One is mainly a derail and mtb product engineer but turns out he's the one that came up with double-tap. He races a ton of cross and almost always has some prototype stuff on his rig. He and another guy we all love have been racing on SRAM electronic for a few years now. I even got to see the wireless electronic road group out at the race I announced at this last weekend.

Ah...it's all a lot of fun. So....not sure why you generalized about the whole industry with regard to product life cycle management without any actual knowledge or experience other than that of a consumer but we all do things for various reasons. All I can tell you is that, at least in SRAM's case, it's not actually the marketing department who is trying to come up with the next way to fleece the masses. It is hard to tell sometimes with BS moves like "New Red Yellow!" and all...

FWIW - they have dropped a lot of their sponsorships this year. Especially in domestic racing. They have almost completely dropped their direct race support. They backed out as the Tour of Gila title sponsor leaving them with almost no options. That combined with the brake recall...things are afoot there. They don't all seem too happy and enthusiastic anymore either. I believe they are moving headquarters as well too. So believe it or not they don't really seem to be super concerned about how internet forums will react to road disc. They just know the market is going that way and they will have product for it. It is what consumers are asking for.

Also - I totally remember the 90's! It was great! Mountain biking sucked but everyone was all for it. I watched the shop floors that used to be 100% road turn to 100% mtb. I'm sure some idiots were stupid enough to claim that road was dead. It wasn't. It isn't. It will never be dead. Mtb will never be dead either. Hell - I had the promoter of the UCI world Championships of Cyclocross tell me, right after they took place, that cross was going to die in the US for the next 3-5 years. ...and yet it's still climbing.

Disc brakes though....not really much of a fad per se. Like I mentioned early in the thread in a few years there will be a bunch of us frame and wheel guys that will push a resurgence in rim brake bikes. ...but...drop in bars? fad. Rim width? fad. integrated shift levers? Not a fad. Electronic? Not a fad. Hydraulic Disc Brakes? Not. A. Fad.

sleepy

I'm just waiting for folks to invent a solar powered engine to attach to the bike and we can finally end this pedaling crap.

elcruxio

There are electric bicycles around already...

bt

what are "drop in bars"?

bt

oops..nvmd found them.

Stucky

(((That was long enough to be one of mine! )))

Wait; wait; I'm confused: There's no cry from consumers for road discs; and since you say they're not being pushed from board rooms and marketing departments....then how is it that all these disc-equipped road bikes are appearing at LBS's?

Heh...your anecdotes seem to illustrate why SRAM seems to be losing serious market share these days, and is just playing keep-up with Shimano..... ('Cept for dropping the sponsorships....that was a good move). IIRC correctly, SRAM isn't a publicly traded company? (Too bad...sounds like a good opportunity to short it!)

svtmike

I think I found the problem.

tekhna

Just out of curiosity, why do you guys suppose disc brakes are catching on more quickly than thru axles for road bikes? Thru axles make a lot of sense in terms of performance and especially for companies given how litigious American consumers can be. There are basically no downsides to a thru axle setup if (IF) you're buying new wheels.

My guess would be disc brakes are much more easily marketed and you can tell at a glance that a bike's running disc brakes while it's harder to see at a glance that a bike's running thru axles. But who knows.

Dave Mayer

On my bikes, I flip the quick release and the wheel falls out. This is the purpose of a quick release. Lawyer lips (or whatever else they're called) are a demonstration of pure contempt against the intelligence of the bike buying public. If the manufacturer of the fork or bike I am interested in buying recommends against grinding off the offending lawyer lips, then I buy something else.

Thu-axles. I saw these demonstrated at a shop recently. They are more of a PITA than even lawyer lips. The purpose of these is - pray tell???

cale

I disagree. As a teen, I was riding home from a friend's house and lifted my wheel to clear the RR tracks. My quick release had been undone as I rode and the wheel fell off. Had my fork had lawyer lips, which were not required at the time, I might not have woken up in the hospital but, instead, made it home safely that night.

Later, in my twenties, I ground off the lawyer lips on my Centurion Ironman but have, I believe, come to my senses since.

elcruxio

Not really ideal for the racer who needs quick wheel swaps (although, thru axle with quick release could be just as fast if not faster if designed properly) but it would certainly be a huge plus for people riding discs and for bigger riders like me. I don't have stiffness issues in my frames but the wheel/frame interface with quickrelease is wobbly like a wet noodle. A thru axle makes this interface stiffer which in turn lessens frame/brake rub when cornering etc.
So you know, for the casual user the thru axle is handier and stiffer. Why buy a stiff frame when all that is still going to be compromised by a quick release

Stucky

Through axles; disc brakes; suspension seatposts.... Now I get it....they're trying to eliminate the road bike. In the future, it'll just be mountain bikes and hybrids- why else would they be burdening road bikes with all of these features which only benefit MTB riders and which are a detriment to light, fast, efficient road bikes?

elcruxio

We've gone over disc brakes in this thread already so let's leave it at that.

As mentioned before, thru axles make the wheel frame interface stiffer. Stiffness is something the road community has been screaming for for a long time and thru axles delivers in this aspect

There is no point in suspension seatposts for road bikes, at least at the moment. Sure, there are some vibration dampening stuff etc. but none of it is really suspension, more like damping systems. What is hopefully coming though, is the road dropper post as seen used by Vincenzo Nibali. It allows for adjustment of 10mm so one can adjust seat height one the go for uphills and downhills for example. I for one see this is a pretty neat feature since dropping the saddle for the downhills makes tucking easier and handling better. Also for uphills one could crank the post upwards to allow for more slow cadence torque.

It's weird how some people would not allow other riders to adopt neat new systems for road bikes...

Dave Mayer

This made me scream with laughter. I don't know a single roadie who thinks that the interface between the wheel axle and the frame is not 'stiff' enough. If it wasn't stiff, it would be creaking with each power stroke. The simple fix to this is to tighten your quick release. Again, I've tested out thru-axles on a road bike. They are a PITA. Even more of a pain than quick releases hobbled with lawyer tabs. With a traditional quick release, you flip the lever and the wheel falls out. Presto.

The thru-axle is yet another example of innapropriate tech ported over from the MTB world. The reason why is that newly converted MTB riders will more easily buy road bikes with componentry that is familiar, and manufacturers are more than willing to comply with the naive needs of this large customer segment.

When the MTB riders are far more experienced, and on their 3rd road bike, then they'll wonder what in the hell were they thinking in buying a road bike with a sloping top tube, disk brakes and thru-axles. But by then, the road bike bubble will surley be burst, and eveyone will be on to something else.

tekhna

I've ridden a friend's 29er before and after switching from QR to thru axle. There's a marked difference in handling, for the better. Quick release works, it's lasted this long for a reason but thru axles are clearly a superior piece of technology. If your argument is that it takes marginally longer to take your wheel off in exchange for better handling and a safer interface that's not much to stand on.

Are we still litigating sloping top tubes? Get a grip.

Stucky

Funny; all these years, I've not heard so much as one person complain that their road bike wheel/frame interface wasn't stiff enough...but now, here's the latest solution to a problem that has never existed.

elcruxio

Soo, you just assume that there is no difference..? Suit yourself. My 29er has the paint stripped from the chainstays due to the flex caused by quick releases... Also, in my bikes, if the rear QR isn't tightened to ridiculous levels it does in fact creak pretty easily.
Also, you must not be creating over 1000 watts too often? With those powers the rear wheel does have a life of it's own.
And as mentioned, for the casual user the additional hassle of a thru axle is a non issue since there's just no need for speedy wheel changes, especially if you get some additional stiffness to the rear triangle.

About your other points, what exatly is your criticism against sloped top tubes? I cannot think of a single con. And with modern carbon seat posts it's actually quite nice to have some extra post showing. Gives a nicer ride.

elcruxio

I'm having constant issues in both my road bike and 29er. But I am a heavy/strong rider so it understandably affects me more than the 120lbs riders out there.

Dave Mayer

Standard quick releases (without the insult of lawyer tabs) are safe. It takes a few seconds to learn how to use them properly - for life. Thru-axles are a pain to use, but offer protection for bike manufacturers against people who deliberately create specious personal injury lawsuits spurred on by the contingency-fee legal industry. This only applies to the US of A.

As far as stiff, thru-axles may have some benefit with suspension forks, but this is because suspension forks are deliberately flexy, and it is a good thing to better lock to two independent legs of the fork together.

On a road bike, if the two legs of your fork are wobbling around independently, then you need a different fork.

Finally, sloping top tubes help prevent your 'nads from getting sqwished when you're navigating tough MTB trails. So this design is obviously inappropriate for road bikes, unless you are constantly falling off of your bike. But road bikes are offered with sloping top tubes because newb road roaders from the MTB world expect this design feature.

elcruxio

But is it an aesthetics issue for you? It certainly seems that way. What are the down sides to a sloping top tube?

tekhna

I guess I should have mentioned it was a rigid fork. You have no argument against thru axles. They're a better piece of technology.

There are absolutely no downsides, unless you are truly a retrogrouch like the folks into luscious velveeta over at Rivendell:

"If you want a compact frame, you can shorten the seat tube a lot, get more crotch clearance (overrated), and still get the high head tube–or even higher, if you like. Then you’ll need a mother-of-a-seat post, but heaven knows they’re out there. It might seem as though you get all good stuff (lighter frame because of less material; stiffer frame becaus of smaller triangle, lower standover height, and just as high or higher head tube and handlebars) with no drawbacks. But there is one drawback: The bike is jumpier, less smooth, harder to control…just doesn’t have the luscious velveeta feeling. You can get used to it and may even come to prefer it, but I like a bike with a normal feel, and a higher top tube seems to help that. This is a subjective, not an objective observation."