tekhna

I think what people are fed up with is change for change's sake. Change can be a good thing but it's not necessarily a good thing. Unless you're into whiggish history.

grolby

No need for anyone to wait for a go-ahead. Disc brakes are already legal in all USAC road events with the exception of national championships and national championship qualifiers. UCI races still forbid discs of course, but they are completely legal in your local crit. I believe this has been true for a little while, but USAC issued a clarifying statement on this with the 2015 rulebook.

I suspect that 2015 is going to be the first year where we start to really notice disc brakes in road racing around here. I've only been to three races so far this year, but I've already spotted a couple of people racing with disc brake bikes. I probably won't switch even with my next racing bike frameset, because going to new wheels is a significant pain point. Just as it is with 11-speed. But for people willing to bite the bullet and spend the dough, or new riders who haven't sunk a lot of money into wheels and frames already, I think we are very close to the tipping point where it makes at least as much sense to go disc with a new road bike as it does to go with rim brakes.

cale

Thanks for the clarification.

sam_cyclist

I think the most disappointing aspect of this discussion is the complete absence of objective data.

Take a look at any publication with automobile reviews. Every issue includes comparisons based upon objective data of braking distance, 0-60 acceleration, weight, noise level, horsepower, etc. Every manufacturer publishes detailed specs including weight, hp, torque, etc etc etc.

In the bicycling industry, there is zero objective data on braking. No comparisons of rim vs disc brake stopping distance in bicycling publications. Shimano doesn't publish any data. Consumers don't ask for it.

Instead, we're left with tons of subjective impressions, and techno weenie vs. retro grouch name calling going back and forth.

I would LOVE to see objective data on stopping distances of various rim brakes and disc brakes. I'd also love to see data backing up claims such as: "rim brakes break rims" etc.

These debates could be settled so easily with just a few basic measurements which no one seems interested in finding or publishing.

svtmike

Can you tell us about all of the terrible wrecks and injuries that they caused?

Dean V

Cycling industry has no objective data on a few things. Frame stiffness and handling are a couple that are often raved about and even if they do measure the stiffness of a frame it is never related objectively as to how the performance is effected.

cale

Quantifying is attractive for comparison sake but it rarely provides an accurate description of a products full range of performance. Consumer Reports, for example, operates the top independent car testing facility in the US. It enables them to test and quantify performance values for a variety of criteria. They work hard to eliminate any bias, in equipment or personnel, that would impact their findings. It has taken a long time for them to establish their reputation for fairness and that's not likely to be easy for a reviewer of bikes. As good as it gets, in this case CR, still gets criticized for having a foreign car bias and for not weighing certain criteria, such as raw performance, higher in importance than other criteria (the sound system, for instance).

Can you imagine the difficulty of reaching any conclusions about performance without purchasing all the bikes necessary for the tests? If not bought for testing then you'd have to control for the tendency of manufacturers to offer "press bikes" for the tests. (Perhaps modified in some way.)

Anywy, I applaud your interest in objectivity.

tekhna

If you start asking for data then the whole marketing machine brakes down. Don't question whether you need a stiffer bottom bracket, you just do. More=good.
Got data showing a stiffer bottom bracket makes a bike go faster? I'd love to see it.


I loved when Fairwheel Bikes did their crank tests and the answer to the question of whether crank stiffness matters was more or less, "Maybe a very very very small amount IF our rosiest possible operating assumptions are born out by fact, but there's lot of debate whether they are"

Dave Mayer

Objective data from the bike industry? Ha. Good luck. The industry is driven by fads, and fads are not supportable by sober facts. So there is little need for facts.

This goes much deeper than the design of individual faddish bike components such as road disk brakes, it applies to the entire bike purchasing decision. Some industry trends:

• In 1972 everyone had to ride a 10-speed
• In 1988 mountain bikes ruled
• By 1993 everyone needed a 40 pound full-suspension downhill mountain bike
• 2006 - Everyone should be on a fixie.
• 2010 - Everything is branded as a road bike.

Disk-brake road bikes are the lastest mini-trend.

Throughout this entire period, you average bike buyer would have been best served by riding a no-suspension, upright, hybrid-style bike.

The second issue here is that the bike industry is not large enough to support any kind of R&D but at the very largest players. And it does not pay enough to support first or even second-tier engineering. So the industry cannot afford, nor does it need deep research.

nemeseri

I perfectly agree with you on this in general. It's impossible to find even detailed weight data for frame-sets / bikes (or standards how to measure the weight of a frame-set properly). Not to mention other really important things. Sometimes manufacturers don't even publish critical geo parameters for frames because of laziness.

Comparing the breaking performance is much-much harder than measuring weight. And I think it's really hard to measure it without taking the rider's technic into account. I can block my rear wheel using my no name caliper break on my single speed in less than second. Probably I can do that with disc breaks too.. How would you measure the stopping distance with sliding wheels?

Stucky

Objective data? LOL..... What are they going to do, make their customers who are buying $5K bikes realize that they'll be .2 seconds faster per mile, and be able to go over the bars with disc brakes .3 seconds faster than with rim? Objective data is the enemy when marketing things of little merit/solutions for which no problem existed.

sam_cyclist

Excellent point. So there really is no advantage. And if there were (hypothetically speaking), manufacturers would be posting this information anywhere and everywhere to the point of obnoxiousness. Instead, complete radio silence....

sam_cyclist

Yeah, I have my generic tektro brakes adjusted satisfactorily, and they work well enough. I don't even have much desire to install the kool stop pads I bought for 'em.

nemeseri

There might be advantage in modulation, stopping power before blocking the wheels, wear etc. I just wanted to point out that you won't see anything like measured stopping distance with bicycle breaks ever. At least until they introduce ABS for bikes.

Stucky

Same here! I've had a set of Kool Stops sitting in my "Box-O-bike stuff" for about 2 years......never got a chance to try 'em out yet, 'cause despite the hilly terrain, I've yet to wear-out a set of pads; and what's on the bikes now stops me plenty well enough. But one day.... [Yeah, you can tell I'd just be chomping at the bit to rush right out and buy a disc bike, eh?! ]

I just love it....all the talk of "INCREASED BRAKING PERFORMANCE"; meanwhile, even on 8000 lb. tractors, they still have drum brakes, and just on the rear wheels, because at under 30MPH, it just doesn't matter.

sam_cyclist

I think spending just a few minutes adjusting rim brakes properly pays excellent dividends. I opened up the brakes up a bit for a little more clearance and centered them, and now they are working quite well. Stopping power has increased noticeably just breaking them in over the course of just a few rides.

At this rate, I think the tektro's may well turn out to be very good brakes. Good brakes at the least.

---

BTW, the v brakes on my mountain bike have ridiculous stopping power. Just a tiny bit of lever pressure is enough at just about any speed. I'm sure the very long pads (kool stop) make a difference, but I cannot see a situation where that much stopping power would be insufficient. Modulation is very good.

Is there any reason why v brakes have not migrated to road component groups? The stopping power is pretty ridiculous.

I think even adopting a longer v brake style would provide more than enough modulation for a road bike.

UnfilteredDregs

Yawn...

sam_cyclist

99%+ of bicycle riders are puttering along at 10-20 mph. Under those circumstances, disc brakes are completely unnecessary.

Perhaps pro riders might want them? But then again, does the peloton really need hair trigger sensitive disc brakes that lock up with the tiniest bit of pressure? How have they been able to descend safely in tight packs at 55 mph with rim brakes all of these decades?

UnfilteredDregs

Where do you clowns come up with this nonsense?

Shuffleman

Some of those mini trends have become full blown standards, like the mtb. I see disc brakes as being more of a subjective thing that some people have and others do not. I do not see it as people fighting progress. I also think that the vast majority of people are not going to suddenly sell their bikes to get disc equipped bikes. That is simply an expensive proposition.

bgav

To everyone saying that the industry is "forcing road disc down our throats" or some other similar hyperbole, I just did a little informal survey of two of the most popular brands that have a significant number road disc models in their lineup, Specialized and Giant. Criteria: Road bikes with drop bars, no CX models or flat bar hybrids.

Specialized


2015 Tarmac - 10 models, 3 road disc


2015 Allez - 9 models, 0 road disc


2015 Venge - 6 models, 0 road disc


2015 Roubaix - 16 models, 6 road disc


2015 Secteur - 6 models, 0 road disc


Total - 47 models, 9 road disc = 19%


2015 Giant


28 models, 7 road disc (Defy Advanced SL (2), Defy Advanced Pro (2), Defy Advanced (3)) = 25%

Like any other business, they'll see which models sell, and which do not. The market (buyers) will play a major role in their lineup. If they have a lot of road disc models that go unsold at the end of the year, what do you really think they'll do?

sam_cyclist

Thanks for displaying your complete lack of intelligence on the topic.

sam_cyclist

I posted a poll a while back and about 30% of respondents claimed that they were considering disc brakes on their next road bike, so perhaps the market can support a 25% share for disc brakes. But then again, maybe it can't. Time will tell.

Canker

What you posted was nonsense.

cale

The tendency towards unrestrained hyperbole, mainly directed at supporters of disc brakes, is odd because it comes from people completely disinterested in owning the technology. I would have never believed it would result such vigorous discussion.

Images of people flying over their handlebars, being badly burned, or cut aren't the sort of positive images that most people associate with cycling. What makes it okay to suggest that these images are the future of cycling if we let disc brakes onto road bikes? Why is it acceptable to berate, tease, and torment forum participants with a willful desire to be obstinate? Are the anti-disk folks really interested in saving us from progress for progress's sake or are they just glad to have an outlet for their misery.

I think the later because there appears to be no desire to elevate the conversation. The anti-disc crowd just wants to drown out any signs of celebration for this turning point in road bike braking, they want a return to the misery that they are comfortable with and won't be happy until they get it and everyone else is miserable too. Thanks!