elcruxio

You have good points here.
I'm personally not that interested in electronic shifting and I doubt I'll go to that technology anytime soon. But that disinterest keeps me off the topics discussing electronic shifting. I don't care. It's not going to replace cables in any case so why should I?

cale

Oh, I'd buy electronic shifting in a nanosecond if I were in a position to afford it. What? Miss a chance to experience the birth of electronic shifting and own one of the original systems? I know this technology isn't going to replace cables, like airplanes prop and jet, cables and electronic shifting will coexist. But the future can't be tied up and held back. It's coming and electronic shifting, assuming a continuum of the present chain and gear based drive system, will be with us for a long time.

sam_cyclist

Your post demonstrates that you lack the knowledge necessary to even enter into the debate.

elcruxio

Knowledge like "hair trigger brakes" and more to that extent?
I believe you live in a different world than the rest of us since even my 4 piston DH brakes with 203mm discs weren't hair trigger. Actually I've never experienced brakes such as you spoke of

sam_cyclist

Your post is nothing more than an ad hominem attack and also a failed attempt to present yourself as if you were completely objective.

Furthermore, you fail in your attempt to impose your frame that disc brakes necessarily represent "progress." One could just as easily label them as "overkill," "heavy," "difficult to maintain" and/or "expensive." Disc brakes are all of these things, and then some.

The fact of the matter is, 99%+ of riders do not race, and ride recreationally between 10 and 20 mph, and therefore have no need whatsoever for disc brakes. It's not even clear whether pro cyclists "need" disc brakes. They have been successfully descending in tight packs at 55 mph+ for multiple decades successfully.

The "fact" of the matter is, and the "reality" of the situation is that pro riders don't need them, never have and never will. HOWEVER, they WILL use whatever equipment is given to them by their sponsors. This does not represent "progress," it represents a rational financial decision on the part of pro riders.

Again, troll attacks such as "you iza clown, derp" or "you da nonsense duh," don't add anything to the discussion, and simply reflect the lack of knowledge of disc brake supporters.

sam_cyclist

My v brakes with kool stops have "hair trigger" stopping power as well.

I had forgotten about how powerful these brakes are, and squeezed the levers with more than a feather touch at low speed and nearly went over the bars. These brakes are great on descents and on the occasions when I get caught in the rain.

Does the typical rider need that much stopping power? Probably not. I like having that much stopping power available to me if necessary, as long as I ride the bike often enough to remember how powerful the brakes are.

The beauty of the v brakes is that they are very lightweight, very easy to adjust (and don't require any adjustment quite frankly) and have fantastic stopping power.

I have no idea why v brakes haven't been adopted for road bike use. They are simpler and lighter than dual pivots and with the longer pads, offer superior stopping power.

IME, they completely obviate the need for disc brakes. Unfortunately for the manufacturer, and for the industry, spec'ing v brakes on road bikes DOESN'T allow them to tout "new fangled" "progressive" "hi tech" "advances" in the bicycling industry.

It's illogical for the consumer, introduces more complexity and expense, is less aero for racers and is totally unnecessary for the vast majority of bicycle riders.

But the industry needs to do what it needs to do to make money, in this case by pushing unnecessary technology. That's the real motivation here.

elcruxio

Ahem...
People who don't race could get by with coaster brakes. Do they want to? Not to my knowledge no. So that argument goes to the trash.

Also, modern discs are in fact easier to maintain than caliper brakes. Bleed once year if that (that's recommmended, but with mineral oil you really don't have to do it so frequently), and change pads once in a while. As a quick hint, with modern shimano brakes changing the pads is massively easier than any rim brake system out there. However you won't know until you try it.

Overkill? Aren't the anti disc folks saying that the rim is one 622mm disc? If that's not overkill then I don't know what is. But the point is not about overkill or not, it's about functionality, and in that disc brakes take the cake. Especially with shimano servo wave tech you can get an amazing feel for the braking and it suddenly becomes very precise when compared to cabled rim brakes or even cabled disc brakes. I can't wait to mount my deore's back on my MTB after the long winter.

Heavy? Well, it also potentially takes weight away from the rim area so there's that. I'd do that switch. It comes down to what one appreciates and where one want's the weight to be situated.
Expensive? Umm, I'm not so sure about that. To get anything close to disc type of performance (and you won't even get there) you need to have Dura Ace level calipers and those things are not cheap.

Pro riders don't really _need_ all that stuff that's given to them anyways. They could ride 9-speed cassettes and alu frames just as well as they now ride with carbon etc. It's not really about need is it? It's about having nicer stuff to do stuff with. I mean I like my good tires on MTB. I could get away with a set of cheaper tires, but I seriously enjoy the higher thread count of the more expensive set, plus some extra features. Same with road tires. I could ride with marathon plus tires, but I prefer Schwalbe one tubeless since the ride is better and more comfortable.
In fact, you could get away with a unicycle for your riding needs, but I prefer to have a second wheel.
It all comes down to having a better time of it with better equipment.

elcruxio

Hey! We're samesies! I also have V-brakes on my road bike

I'd still go for discs every time if I could... Having chewed through one expensive rim already, I do not want that to occur again.
Also the feel is different.
If I compare my road Vee's to my two sets of MTB discs I still prefer discs.
Road V = powerful, but has a serious brake bite which does not inspire confidence for heavier braking. The progression is like "light brake, light brake, light brake BITE" and you're almost over the bars.
MTB Avid BB7 = powerful and very smooth progression. Almost too smooth since to get max power one really needs to be pulling the lever.
MTB Shimano deore = Very powerful but also smooth with a exponential progression which allows for very light light braking but quickly allows for all power to be used if necessary.

sam_cyclist

I have v brakes on my mtb, which I had been using as a road bike with skinny slicks.

I haven't seen v brakes spec'ed on road bikes at all: perhaps on cross bikes?

The point being, v brakes spec'ed on road bikes would provide fantastic stopping power with none of the cost, weight, complexity, or aero penalty of discs.

sam_cyclist

WTF??? On my last road bike with dual calipers, they required zero maintenance! Set it and forget it! No mineral oil required, no bleeding, no changing of the pads. I rode that road bike for a decade with original pads and the pads never wore out.





Seriously, you are losing touch with reality. Bicycles, by definition, have two wheels. These wheels typically have rims. Rims are necessary for the bike to roll, lol. When a rim rolls, the bike moves forward.


BTW, you may want to check the thread title again. The topic is road discs, not mtb discs.



Well, you are seriously lacking in facts there, my friend. Feel free to post the "weight savings" real or imagined from rims on disc brake bikes.



Define "performance." Any rim brake can be locked up with a very small amount of leverage and force at the lever. If you're going to pull the "discs have superior modulation," then PROVE IT. SHOW THE DATA. Ah, you don't have it. How convenient! This is simply your SUBJECTIVE BIAS with ZERO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE to back it up.



Brilliant argument. Racers are all about having "nicer stuff" to do "stuff" with. Good stuff.



You have no argument here.


Do you have any data to show that disc brakes have more stopping power? No, you do not. Disc and rim brakes lock up easily.


Do you have any data to show that disc brakes offer "superior modulation?": No, you do not. You have no objective evidence of any kind. All you have is your subjective opinion, ie disc brakes are "nice stuff" that you can "do stuff with."


The bottom line is you have no data, not a single shred of evidence to support any of your pseudo-arguments with.

elcruxio

You seem to be pretty big on the whole data thing.
Tell me this.
Where's the data that shows that 11 speed cassettes are faster than 10 speed cassettes?
OR
that electronic shifting is faster than cables.
OR
compact bars are faster than traditional bars.

That's right. There isn't any data for that because none of that was for speed. Just as brakes aren't really for speed. Aerodynamics is for speed, but if you don't care about aero then whatever. I personally care about reliability and fun (rim brakes aren't fun, especially when it's not warm and sunny)

It wouldn't actually be that difficult to test modulation for brakes. You'd just need some power meter thingies and a set of rubber bands and a treadmill. I don't have those so I'll leave all that to others.
But I can say this. Unlike you, I have tried all kinds of discs and all kinds of rim brakes. I prefer discs for their feel. That is subjective yes, but so is tire choices. If it didn't matter, everyone would ride schwalbe duranos. Everyone doesn't so from that you can actually deduce that tire feel does actually matter somewhat. As does brake feel or we would all use sora brakes in our bikes. There wouldn't be a market for the higher end if feel didn't matter.

Also, I said there was potential for lighter rims with discs. Not sure if they've made them yet, but I had the impression that some makers are at least developing disc specific road rims with better aerodynamics and less weight. And as you must know, weight off the rim and onto the bike is actually a plus. Also aerodynamics of the wheel is more important than the aerodynamics of the frame where the calipers are mounted.

Discs for MTB and discs for road are not so different as to stop comparison between the two. I can easily draw conclusions from shimano and avid brake lines on the MTB side to the road side since both use essentially the same technology on both riding disciplines.

So uhh. You rode a set of brakes without even changing the cables or pads once for over a decade? That must have been fun... It's not something I would do simply due to safety reasons but each to their own I guess.

And next time you request data, try to offer some as well. The argument "BOTH STOP EASY DURR!" is on the level of comparing the rubber foot pressing on the tire brake against all others. IT STOPS EASY DURR!

sam_cyclist

Elcruxio, I simply don't have the time to point out every piece of illogic, contradiction and lack of evidence in your post above.

My simple question for you is this: what's your point? And what evidence do you have to back it up? Two simple questions which I doubt you will be able to answer clearly.

edit: your argument so far goes something like this:

"Brake feel good. Derp." "Uh, my evident? Because I said so. I use thingie, or something sometime."

elcruxio

Uh oh. Looks like someone ran out of arguments.

but as far as I'm concerned your contribution hasn't been that great either. You demand evidence of things which are of no consequence since the preference for those things such as power/modulation are inherently subjective. Some people get hooked by discs and you are basically saying they shouldn't like discs since there's no data. More 10 speed cassettes offer no quantifiable improvement over say, 8speeds but still people prefer 10 speeds. Funny how that works eh?

And some things are fully quantifiable where discs win hands down. Discs don't wear down rims. They perform better in bad conditions (you don't lose braking power in sub freezing).

But you have to understand that modulation and power are subjective preferences. The data is irrelevant. Still, against all your points discs are the sole brake system in the MTB world. If your arguments had any merit one would imagine MTB's would use rim brakes in some extent at least, since as you argue, there isn't that big of a difference. But you just have to look at the reality and face the facts.

When people try discs, they really seem to like 'em. That's why there's a demand and a market.

bgav

The simple fact of the matter is if you don't want them, or don't like them, you don't have to buy road disc brakes/bikes. As my earlier informal survey shows, they're not being "forced" down our throats, with only 20-25% of Giant's and Specialized road bike models being road disc for '15.

To dismiss them with inaccurate terms and exaggerations does nothing to strengthen anyone's arguments (99%+ riders don't race and go only 10-20mph??, where do you get these #'s????). They have many benefits for non-racers that you are dismissing out of ignorance or intentionally. It's not about racing, or your average speed, so that's a straw-man.

I've ridden road and mountain bikes for over 20 years, and "all-roads" before it became fashionable. Cantilever, road caliper, MTB mechanical disc, and my newest all-rounder build with hydraulic discs. Discs are heavier, but their lever feel, modulation, and stopping power far outweigh the slight overall weight penalty for me. I am now spoiled. I prefer by far hydro disc. Better modulation and lever feel means better control, not "hair trigger" and because of that modulation and control, it is easier to prevent lockup while stopping quicker and in a shorter distance. I don't race, but for emergency braking, braking on wet pavement or on loose dirt, I can control my braking better. If you've ever done a long, fast bumpy dirt road descent, the ability to modulate braking and have the power to brake with one finger on the lever is an epiphany. The same holds true for the road. Once setup correctly, they're easy to maintain. Changing both frornt and rear pads takes a few minutes. I'm not wearing down the brake tracks on my carbon and aluminum rims due to dirty brake pads.

Like I said earlier, don't knock them til you try them. Really try them, in varying conditions.

It's about choices. I now prefer hydro disc along with many others. You may not. No one's forcing you to use them. Manufacturers are offering customers choice.

UnfilteredDregs

Oh really? Okay Sam, what part of what I quoted isn't absolute clown nonsense? Let's see the big brain on Sam, Hair triggers? Indeed. lmfao

svtmike

I agree. I've got bikes with calipers and bikes with discs and can switch between them without giving the brakes a second thought.

UnfilteredDregs

The common thread among most of the naysayers is nearly zero experience with a good disc setup.

(Queue BT)

bt

if you like the sound of a squealing pig, get discs.

velociraptor

I have a feeling that in about five years, there will be claim chowder a'plenty to serve up to the anti-disc luddites in this thread.

Just sayin'.

bgav

My discs rarely squeal. My cantis squeal more often, and road calipers with carbon rims can make a real nice high pitched squeal on spirited descents with hard braking. Ride with a group with riders on road calipers & carbon rims and you'll know the sound.

RJM

In 10 years the marketers will be showcasing caliper/rim brakes as more awesomer than disc because a bigger disk is better and your bike's handling/ride quality will improve with the lower weight and less beefy forks/chainstays...15 years the road disc will die the fad death that they are...much like road bike suspension.

RJM

My mountain bike disc brakes squeal dang near every ride....current xt brakes. The only time I've had problem with v-brakes or cantis squealing is when I didn't set them up with the proper toe.

bt

get some bontrager cork pads for your carbon wheels. that will fix the noise.

bgav

In 15 years everything will be replaced with electromagnetic brakes .

bt

in ten years, hopefully they will have fixed ALL the issues. but you can't fix ugly!