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BHS vs BDOP DIY kits (wheel building)

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BHS vs BDOP DIY kits (wheel building)

Old 04-27-15, 08:19 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
What is so good about White T11s? The bling?
That was my question!

Is it really just a titanium free hub and "bling"??

Or is there maybe more to it?
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Old 04-27-15, 08:38 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
I don't know what reliable means re: hubs. In 32 years of road riding and close to 100,000 miles on a wide variety of hub types and prices, I have never had any kind of hub failure. At 4 times the price for blingy hubs, the economics just don't compute. When you buy BHS or Novstec hubs for 1/4 the price, it is like you are self-insured for free.
ditto
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Old 04-27-15, 11:43 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by GuitarBob View Post
What does quality mean? Come on now, don't be silly. The folks at Fairwheel contrasted the rims and made a statement. If that doesn't matter to you, that's just fine with me.
Hardly an unbiased source of info as fairwheel was involved in the design of the pacenti rims. Perhaps they have a financial interns as well.

https://fairwheelbikes.com/c/reviews...y-rim-roundup/
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Old 04-28-15, 04:00 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
if you were to choose triplet lacing anyway, the result of a broken spoke needn't cause a problem. I carry a spoke wrench and am confident that a rideable wheel can be maintained even so. The stiffness issue with triplet is real, but I don't see the problem. It works fine for me. It's okay to disagree about this. I respect your opinion.
if you ever break a NDS spoke on a triplet laced wheel, you will see the problem. It's not as simple as you seem to believe.

FTR, I've built wheels with BHS hubs(both triplet and traditional laced). The traditionally laced version was an absolute joke. NDS spoke tension was ridiculously low. With triplet lacing the wheel was much better, but lateral stiffness was a little less than I prefer, and I'm far from being called a sprinter.
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Old 04-28-15, 05:36 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by BoSoxYacht View Post
FTR, I've built wheels with BHS hubs(both triplet and traditional laced). The traditionally laced version was an absolute joke. NDS spoke tension was ridiculously low. With triplet lacing the wheel was much better, but lateral stiffness was a little less than I prefer, and I'm far from being called a sprinter.
I have exactly the same experience as you do when using any of the BHS hubs that come with the 37.6/16.9 NDS/DS flange-to-center distance ratio. No argument at all in that particular case. The main offering at this time, however, the SL210 hub has a 37.3/17.1 ratio. The BDop Novatec hubs have a 38.0/17.5 ratio. But the flange diameters are different also and are in favor of the BHS hub. When all these numbers are plugged into the spoke length calculator, the results for the two hubs are identical, a 0.47 ratio for the NDS tension/DS tension. With either hub 60 kgf tension on the NDS can be achieved with 128 kgf on the DS. I would still prefer triplet, but the main BHS offering is much improved. I could build wheels like that for folks without a qualm.
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Old 04-28-15, 06:50 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
What is so good about White T11s? The bling?
I can only speak at great knowledge with regard to T11s versus Novatec F482SB, but there are several meaningful differences.

First, the titanium cassette body as many have mentioned. I've seen 3 year old ti cassette bodies that were less chewed up than 3 ride old aluminum cassette bodies. This sacrifices a few grams and adds significant cost. The grams are meaningless in my opinion but the dollars are real.

The T11 uses a steel axle as opposed to an aluminum axle on most other hubs and certainly the majority of lightweight OEM hubs. This costs a few grams again, but is an area where we have seen a meaningful difference in longevity. We've seen a number of bent Novatec axles. Far from an epidemic or something that's going to happen to everyone, but I wouldn't recommend them for cross use, or heavier riders, or people who like to take road bikes where road bikes aren't necessarily meant to go. A lot of times people with lightweight hubs wonder why the hub won't hold a bearing after a while, and a bent axle is usually the culprit.

Both use steel pawls and drive rings, but the T11 drive ring gives some points of engagement back in order to have deeper engagement. You very occasionally hear about skipping engagement with Novatecs but in some other hubs it's more of a thing. In my opinion, unless you are Hans "No Way" Rey, speed of engagement is something you will never notice in a million years but a skipped engagement could have an acute bad outcome.

Overall bearing spread on the T11 is quite a bit wider than on any lightweight OEM hub I've seen. The T11's hub shell bearing width is maximized, and same with the bearings inside the cassette body. We have bench tested stiffness of various builds with various hubs, and the T11 always comes out at the head of the class. The stiffness difference between a wheel built with a T11 rear and an F482 rear is usually on the order of one spoke group (i.e. a 24h wheel with T11 is stiffness equivalent to a 28h wheel with an F482). How much of that is down to bearing spread versus axle differences or other factors I have no way of isolating and thus I can't say.

The bearings on F482s and most OEM hubs are open spec, meaning that different places will be selling "the same" hub with different bearings. We always used EZO ABEC 5 bearings in the Novatecs we sold. I've heard of Novatecs gaining a reputation as being a dry weather hub, but that hasn't necessarily been our experience. I'm inclined to say that there are hubs out there with lesser bearings causing that impression. In any case, all T11s come with Enduro-made ABEC 5 bearings.

Tension balance on either is about as good as you can do with 11 speed hubs without going to a radial drive side (and that didn't work out so hot), and in our deep experience this is a non-issue.

On the front hubs, T11 front flange and bearing spacing is much wider than a Novatec A291's. An A291's flanges nest inside of a T11 front hub's flanges, and the T11 has higher flanges. The stiffness increase between otherwise equivalent builds is noticeable there.

As far as ease of service goes, both are dead simple but the T11 is actually easier. Undo three 2mm set screws and you can take the thing all the way apart. An F482 is hardly complex, but requires two 5mm and one 10mm hex. T11 front requires undoing the same 2mm set screws, while the A291 front requires two 5mm hexes. Both are WELL within the capability of anyone with greater mechanical aptitude than my brother (which is about 99.6% of all people over the age of 4).

Cost differences are significant, and that can't be ignored.

For full disclosure, we have built and sold many hundred (I don't know exactly how many of each without doing a research project) of each hub I describe. We currently sell T11s but do not currently sell Novatec or any other OEM hubs. Fairwheel had a stake in the SL23 project and in my opinion treated the Kinlin/SL23 comparison fairly. Wheelbuilder.org was created by Zen Wheels and, so far as I could ever tell, he was the sole contributor and not very transparent about it (the royal "we" being just one example of that). November is imminently launching a hub produced by White Industries that is very closely based on the T11, which is undeniably related to our good opinion of White Industries and their products, but our good opinion of White Industries and their products is what led us to seek this cooperation with them in the first place. This hub set will address the cost difference between T11s and OEM hubs.

Last edited by November Dave; 04-28-15 at 06:54 AM. Reason: undo an auto-correct induced spelling error
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Old 04-28-15, 07:08 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
I can only speak at great knowledge with regard to T11s versus Novatec F482SB, but there are several meaningful differences.

First, the titanium cassette body as many have mentioned. I've seen 3 year old ti cassette bodies that were less chewed up than 3 ride old aluminum cassette bodies. This sacrifices a few grams and adds significant cost. The grams are meaningless in my opinion but the dollars are real.

The T11 uses a steel axle as opposed to an aluminum axle on most other hubs and certainly the majority of lightweight OEM hubs. This costs a few grams again, but is an area where we have seen a meaningful difference in longevity. We've seen a number of bent Novatec axles. Far from an epidemic or something that's going to happen to everyone, but I wouldn't recommend them for cross use, or heavier riders, or people who like to take road bikes where road bikes aren't necessarily meant to go. A lot of times people with lightweight hubs wonder why the hub won't hold a bearing after a while, and a bent axle is usually the culprit.

Both use steel pawls and drive rings, but the T11 drive ring gives some points of engagement back in order to have deeper engagement. You very occasionally hear about skipping engagement with Novatecs but in some other hubs it's more of a thing. In my opinion, unless you are Hans "No Way" Rey, speed of engagement is something you will never notice in a million years but a skipped engagement could have an acute bad outcome.

Overall bearing spread on the T11 is quite a bit wider than on any lightweight OEM hub I've seen. The T11's hub shell bearing width is maximized, and same with the bearings inside the cassette body. We have bench tested stiffness of various builds with various hubs, and the T11 always comes out at the head of the class. The stiffness difference between a wheel built with a T11 rear and an F482 rear is usually on the order of one spoke group (i.e. a 24h wheel with T11 is stiffness equivalent to a 28h wheel with an F482). How much of that is down to bearing spread versus axle differences or other factors I have no way of isolating and thus I can't say.

The bearings on F482s and most OEM hubs are open spec, meaning that different places will be selling "the same" hub with different bearings. We always used EZO ABEC 5 bearings in the Novatecs we sold. I've heard of Novatecs gaining a reputation as being a dry weather hub, but that hasn't necessarily been our experience. I'm inclined to say that there are hubs out there with lesser bearings causing that impression. In any case, all T11s come with Enduro-made ABEC 5 bearings.

Tension balance on either is about as good as you can do with 11 speed hubs without going to a radial drive side (and that didn't work out so hot), and in our deep experience this is a non-issue.

On the front hubs, T11 front flange and bearing spacing is much wider than a Novatec A291's. An A291's flanges nest inside of a T11 front hub's flanges, and the T11 has higher flanges. The stiffness increase between otherwise equivalent builds is noticeable there.

As far as ease of service goes, both are dead simple but the T11 is actually easier. Undo three 2mm set screws and you can take the thing all the way apart. An F482 is hardly complex, but requires two 5mm and one 10mm hex. T11 front requires undoing the same 2mm set screws, while the A291 front requires two 5mm hexes. Both are WELL within the capability of anyone with greater mechanical aptitude than my brother (which is about 99.6% of all people over the age of 4).

Cost differences are significant, and that can't be ignored.

For full disclosure, we have built and sold many hundred (I don't know exactly how many of each without doing a research project) of each hub I describe. We currently sell T11s but do not currently sell Novatec or any other OEM hubs. Fairwheel had a stake in the SL23 project and in my opinion treated the Kinlin/SL23 comparison fairly. Wheelbuilder.org was created by Zen Wheels and, so far as I could ever tell, he was the sole contributor and not very transparent about it (the royal "we" being just one example of that). November is imminently launching a hub produced by White Industries that is very closely based on the T11, which is undeniably related to our good opinion of White Industries and their products, but our good opinion of White Industries and their products is what led us to seek this cooperation with them in the first place. This hub set will address the cost difference between T11s and OEM hubs.
Thanks Dave for an excellent comparative review. I appreciate your candor. Often when I ask a question such as you answered above, it sounds like my mind is made up, and I don't really have much use for the answer. And I can't deny there is often some prejudice which I don't hide very well. But in fact I want very much to know the full story such as you provided. Mostly I use the provocation to bring out facts that folks often don't bother to discuss assuming that just saying a high-end brand name is justification enough. Your overview provides the detailed information necessary to make an informed decision with respect to one's own circumstances and riding characteristics. I will look forward to the introduction of your White-made house model hubs. Thanks again.
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Old 04-28-15, 07:44 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
sic
Thorough post! This should a sticky.
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Old 04-28-15, 07:49 AM
  #59  
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Indeed, thanks Dave!!

And still no mention of the (obviously better?) kinlin XR-31T rims? While the other Kinlins and Pacentis previously mentioned here, I'm sure are good rims, is not the XR-31T not significantly more desired?

(shrug)
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Old 04-28-15, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by loimpact View Post
Indeed, thanks Dave!!

And still no mention of the (obviously better?) kinlin XR-31T rims? While the other Kinlins and Pacentis previously mentioned here, I'm sure are good rims, is not the XR-31T not significantly more desired?

(shrug)
The debate was probably more about the offered do-it-yourself kits from BHS or BDOP. The later has only the XC-279 and TB-25.
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Old 04-28-15, 09:15 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Formula hubs are good, but I don't think they have anything over the BHS hubs. There is a lot of variety in the BHS product line including the very desirable 8:16 and 9:18 drilled rear hubs. Those are sweet.
could you comment on the 16:8 hub option? is it more stiff than 12:12? is it any harder to build the wheel?
I'm thinking of building a set of pacentis with 16:8

thanks!
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Old 04-28-15, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bikebreak View Post
could you comment on the 16:8 hub option? is it more stiff than 12:12? is it any harder to build the wheel?
I'm thinking of building a set of pacentis with 16:8

thanks!
No, the wheel is less stiff overall, because there are fewer NDS spokes. The NDS spokes have a greater bracing angle and provide much more of the stiffness than the DS spokes. Moving 1/2 of the NDS spokes to the DS side where the bracing angle is smaller results in a loss of stiffness.

The triplet lacing pattern is slightly more difficult to tension and true especially radially, since there are two spokes pulling one way for every one spoke pulling the other. It is not a big problem however.
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Old 04-28-15, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
No, the wheel is less stiff overall, because there are fewer NDS spokes. The NDS spokes have a greater bracing angle and provide much more of the stiffness than the DS spokes. Moving 1/2 of the NDS spokes to the DS side where the bracing angle is smaller results in a loss of stiffness.

The triplet lacing pattern is slightly more difficult to tension and true especially radially, since there are two spokes pulling one way for every one spoke pulling the other. It is not a big problem however.
Having worked on A LOT of Fulcrum and Campagnolo wheels, I'd choose 2:1 over triplet (G3) lacing any day.
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Old 04-28-15, 11:29 AM
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Having only scanned the first few posts, I feel like I'm justified in giving my opinion here:I've bought two build kits from BHS. You can get basically any combination of things you want, so long as you email them. They're very helpful and quick to respond. I'll list the two wheel kits below and comment on them.1) 20/27, Pacenti SL23, BHS SL210 and BHS SL85W rear and front hub, CX Rays all around, radial front, 2:1 rear, Ti skewers, Al nipples. blue pacenti rim tape.I'm a big fan of the rims. The brake track is huge, and smooth. The front hub had < 800 miles before one of the bearings went bad. I don't blame BHS, it's not as if they purposefully specked a bad bearing. Enduro actually warrantied it with very little question and that was that. The rear hub had the 2:1 drilling, and it works out nice. The NDS tension was nearly spot on with the DS. The total weight, including skewers, was about 1480g. Hard to beat with any other combo of AL rim and hub. One, gripe(?), for lack of a better word, is with the rear hub. After about 1000 miles, I noticed that the freehub had already started to show signs of notching. This isn't BHS specific. Any AL freehub will do this. I guess I only had expected it to take a little longer. I weigh in @ 160 lbs, and can throw down mediocre power at best. It is what it is. I did like the kit, so I ordered another and gave these wheels to the wife, who I suspect will not damage the FH as much or as quickly.2) 24/28, Pacenti SL23, Duraace 9000 hubs, Lasers all around, 2x front and rear, Al nipples, blue pacenti rim tape.Similar to the first build, but with different hubs, and opted for the slightly cheaper lasers. The kit cost a little more, and is quite a bit heavier honestly. The wheels weigh in at 1520g without the skewers, and those are probably good for another 125g, bringing the total to at least 150g heavier. The hubs however are night and day above the BHS hubs. It's not really fair to compare them though, they are in two different leagues serving two different purposes. The Ti freehub was what I was really after. The front wheel built fine, but the rear gave me some concerns. The DS tension is about 120 kgf, while the NDS is right at 55, before mounting tires. I didn't really want to go any higher on the DS, and couldn't get any more out of the NDS. It doesn't seem to be causing any issues however. Have ridden them far enough to let any problems present themselves, and they are still as true as ever. tl;drBHS hubs with 2:1 drilling create nice even tension. BHS hubs are lighter but less durable than more expensive hubs. Pacenti SL23's are the bees knees.
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Old 04-28-15, 11:30 AM
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Also, chromium isn't respecting my paragraph spacing. sorry for the wall o text.
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Old 04-28-15, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
Having worked on A LOT of Fulcrum and Campagnolo wheels, I'd choose 2:1 over triplet (G3) lacing any day.
I was using 2:1 and triplet synonymously. I didn't mean triplets with big spaces between them but rather evenly spaced spoke holes throughout. Do you understand triplet to mean only the G3-type arrangement?
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Old 04-28-15, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
I was using 2:1 and triplet synonymously. I didn't mean triplets with big spaces between them but rather evenly spaced spoke holes throughout. Do you understand triplet to mean only the G3-type arrangement?
Yeah, a bit confusing here.

For me, 2:1 is as you describe and triplet would be Campagnolo G3 or Rolf etc where three spokes are grouped together 2:1 with spaces in between the groupings (2:1 has even spacing around the rim which is why I prefer it).
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Old 04-28-15, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
Yeah, a bit confusing here.

For me, 2:1 is as you describe and triplet would be Campagnolo G3 or Rolf etc where three spokes are grouped together 2:1 with spaces in between the groupings (2:1 has even spacing around the rim which is why I prefer it).
Fair enough.
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Old 04-28-15, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mooder View Post
The debate was probably more about the offered do-it-yourself kits from BHS or BDOP. The later has only the XC-279 and TB-25.
In all honesty, we've been bogged down in OE work since TPE show. The whole DIY program has been on the back burner as a result.

We have made some progress and have already ordered new products and plan to add two more option for alloy kits. The current alloy road kits will remain as our base model. We will add:

1. A291SB-SL/F482SB-SL-11, XR-31T and CX-Ray spokes plus rim strips, tools and the Valvinator.
2. A291SB-SL/F482SB-SL-11, Fratelli FX1722 and Laser spokes plus rim strips, tools and the Valvinator.

All this just needs me to lace up all the kits to confirm spoke lengths, weights etc then they will go live. Hopefully my boss stops being such a demanding arse and I can get this done soon!

Oh, and a FG/SS:

3. A165SB/A166SB-T, XR-270 and Laser spokes plus rim strips, tools and the Valvinator.
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Old 04-28-15, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
In all honesty, we've been bogged down in OE work since TPE show. The whole DIY program has been on the back burner as a result.

We have made some progress and have already ordered new products and plan to add two more option for alloy kits. The current alloy road kits will remain as our base model. We will add:

1. A291SB-SL/F482SB-SL-11, XR-31T and CX-Ray spokes plus rim strips, tools and the Valvinator.
2. A291SB-SL/F482SB-SL-11, Fratelli FX1722 and Laser spokes plus rim strips, tools and the Valvinator.

All this just needs me to lace up all the kits to confirm spoke lengths, weights etc then they will go live. Hopefully my boss stops being such a demanding arse and I can get this done soon!

Oh, and a FG/SS:

3. A165SB/A166SB-T, XR-270 and Laser spokes plus rim strips, tools and the Valvinator.
Right when I order from you!
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Old 04-28-15, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mooder View Post
Right when I order from you!
The rims are a week+ or so away from delivery...then it's going to take me a few weeks to build all the combinations to confirm spoke lengths...then I'll need to ride a set for a few weeks...then we will have to pick and pre-pack (another week)...

I think you get the point.
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Old 04-29-15, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Dopolina View Post
In all honesty, we've been bogged down in OE work since TPE show. The whole DIY program has been on the back burner as a result.

We have made some progress and have already ordered new products and plan to add two more option for alloy kits. The current alloy road kits will remain as our base model. We will add:

1. A291SB-SL/F482SB-SL-11, XR-31T and CX-Ray spokes plus rim strips, tools and the Valvinator.
2. A291SB-SL/F482SB-SL-11, Fratelli FX1722 and Laser spokes plus rim strips, tools and the Valvinator.

All this just needs me to lace up all the kits to confirm spoke lengths, weights etc then they will go live. Hopefully my boss stops being such a demanding arse and I can get this done soon!

Oh, and a FG/SS:

3. A165SB/A166SB-T, XR-270 and Laser spokes plus rim strips, tools and the Valvinator.
any more details about 1 & 2? What are Fratelli hoops?
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Old 04-29-15, 03:42 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Edonis13 View Post
my 24f/28r CX-Ray BDop wheels weigh in at 1580 grams.
Is that with or without skewers?
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Old 04-29-15, 03:49 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by redtires View Post
Is that with or without skewers?
Always with skewers.

The kit is meant to have everything you need, including the tools, to build the wheels and then slap them on your bike and go for a ride (ok, so tires and tubes).
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Old 04-29-15, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BoSoxYacht View Post
any more details about 1 & 2? What are Fratelli hoops?
Fratelli rims are alloy, pinned, and shot peeled. They are 22mm deep, 21.2 wide with an internal width of 17mm and come in at 400g. These will be used to make a light, but durable climbing wheel kit.

I'm pretty sure you're familiar with the rest of the parts.

The other kit will be a slightly more expensive kit as compared to our existing alloy kits but not by much. We know pricing is key for these kits.
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