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what % of FTP is sustainable for repeated surges

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what % of FTP is sustainable for repeated surges

Old 05-16-15, 07:32 PM
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greenlight149
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what % of FTP is sustainable for repeated surges

on mountainous terrain where you can recover on the way down, how hard do you go on the way up, and be able to do that repeatedly for a few hours. 120% of FTP is considered anaerobic right? can you recover enough to go deeper than that?
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Old 05-16-15, 07:57 PM
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Rule #93//Descents are not for recovery. Recovery Ales are for Recovery


Descents are meant to be as hard and demanding as – and much more dangerous than – the climbs. Climb hard, descend to close a gap or open one. Descents should hurt, not be a time for recovery. Recovery is designated only for the pub and for spit-talking
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Old 05-16-15, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
Rule #93//Descents are not for recovery. Recovery Ales are for Recovery


Descents are meant to be as hard and demanding as – and much more dangerous than – the climbs. Climb hard, descend to close a gap or open one. Descents should hurt, not be a time for recovery. Recovery is designated only for the pub and for spit-talking
To be fair, he might be talking about something as ridiculous as Mt Baldy....(a la Stage 7 of the TOC today). I know how ridiculous the descents are cuz I rode up this morning. (ouch!)

In this case, though (and only cuz I'd be just as interested to know myself) perhaps the better question is.....Is it better to FTP straight thru, or push it, then recover, rinse & repeat???

FWIW, I played the "tortoise" today which seemed to pay off. I brought quite a few people back who pushed past me lower on the mountain only because I decided to keep just below FTP. (Though it felt like he// regardless)

I saw more than one person walking their bike up today. (yikes!)
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Old 05-16-15, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by loimpact View Post
To be fair, he might be talking about something as ridiculous as Mt Baldy....(a la Stage 7 of the TOC today). I know how ridiculous the descents are cuz I rode up this morning. (ouch!)

In this case, though (and only cuz I'd be just as interested to know myself) perhaps the better question is.....Is it better to FTP straight thru, or push it, then recover, rinse & repeat???

FWIW, I played the "tortoise" today which seemed to pay off. I brought quite a few people back who pushed past me lower on the mountain only because I decided to keep just below FTP. (Though it felt like he// regardless)

I saw more than one person walking their bike up today. (yikes!)
There are rules for that too :-).

Rule #23//Tuck only after reaching Escape Velocity.


You may only employ the aerodynamic tuck after you have spun out your 53 x 11; the tuck is to be engaged only when your legs can no longer keep up. Your legs make you go fast, and trying to keep your fat ass out of the wind only serves to keep you from slowing down once you reach escape velocity. Thus, the tuck is only to be employed to prevent you slowing down when your legs have wrung the top end out of your block. Tucking prematurely while descending is the antithesis of Casually Deliberate. For more on riding fast downhill see Rule #64 and Rule #85.
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Old 05-16-15, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
Rule #93//Descents are not for recovery. Recovery Ales are for Recovery


Descents are meant to be as hard and demanding as – and much more dangerous than – the climbs. Climb hard, descend to close a gap or open one. Descents should hurt, not be a time for recovery. Recovery is designated only for the pub and for spit-talking
Unless you are planning to go off the front - they are recovery. Most racers HR and power is lower on a decent than the accent.
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Old 05-16-15, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
There are rules for that too :-).
Ha ha....Indeed! Actually, the scariest part of descending Baldy today was that after the pro peloton left there were cars everywhere. Cars going up, cars going down and I literally rode the majority of the descent between a Chevy Suburban in front of me and a Lexus RX350 behind me. Just kept looking over my shoulder to make sure I didn't get a grill in my arse.

True to the tales, I could have easily descended faster than either of those vehicles had they not been in my way. Handfuls of brake on the way down to make sure I didn't make myself a window sticker on the back of the Suburban.

Oh....and all that to say......I think I could classify descents into 3 categories...

1.) Push (a la rule 93)
2.) Recover (spinning out 53/11 but not by a whole lot)
3.) Hang on for dear life as you pass 50mph on the way to 60mph and the road starts to look like a cracked dry lake bed. (Yeeeowww!!)
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Old 05-16-15, 08:12 PM
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i figured any extra watts you are pushing while descending at 60-70kph might be better used on the hills where it can save you more time. it just doesnt make sense to me to push as hard on the hills as the descends, that means you are trying to hold FTP, which in theory wont last more than one hour.
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Old 05-16-15, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Unless you are planning to go off the front - they are recovery. Most racers HR and power is lower on a decent than the accent.
I do believe Willbird is just being a little tongue-in-cheek w/ the "rules" humor.

The "rules" site is often cited (no pun intended) as comedy relief in regards to what would normally be considered the "extreme" (or perhaps "norm" for those who really think so "Fredly") and at which we make the object of much ridicule.

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Old 05-16-15, 08:35 PM
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Obviously the above is just tongue in cheek. Power output shouldn't be linear for maximum results largely due to wind resistance. At the risk of greatly oversimplifying things, watts are better spent on climbs, then flats, then finally on downhills as drag increases with the square of speed.

No one can answer your original question because it varies for each person. But by definition, anything above FTP would be anaerobic.
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Old 05-16-15, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Xherion View Post
Obviously the above is just tongue in cheek. Power output shouldn't be linear for maximum results largely due to wind resistance. At the risk of greatly oversimplifying things, watts are better spent on climbs, then flats, then finally on downhills as drag increases with the square of speed.

No one can answer your original question because it varies for each person. But by definition, anything above FTP would be anaerobic.
anything over FTP is anaerobic? i dont think so.

you can do a 20 minute effort at 105% FTP, and its largely aerobic.

Last edited by greenlight149; 05-16-15 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 05-16-15, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by loimpact View Post
I do believe Willbird is just being a little tongue-in-cheek w/ the "rules" humor.

The "rules" site is often cited (no pun intended) as comedy relief in regards to what would normally be considered the "extreme" (or perhaps "norm" for those who really think so "Fredly") and at which we make the object of much ridicule.

I do not race anybody but me, but that rule does remind me to try to keep the same HR on a decline as an ascent (both are usually very short duration here). One of my favorite 8 mile stretches coming home is a lot more fun if you work as hard at the declines as you do the inclines. Fun to find the LTHR for the day and flirt with it :-).

What does a decline mean to you "I can take it easier now".....or "I can go faster now, and maybe carry 20+ over the next hill" ?

Last edited by Willbird; 05-16-15 at 08:59 PM.
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Old 05-16-15, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
I do not race anybody but me, but that rule does remind me to try to keep the same HR on a decline as an ascent (both are usually very short duration here). One of my favorite 8 mile stretches coming home is a lot more fun if you work as hard at the declines as you do the inclines. Fun to find the LTHR for the day and flirt with it :-).

What does a decline mean to you "I can take it easier now".....or "I can go faster now, and maybe carry 20+ over the next hill" ?

My town is cursed.

Every downhill within our borders, it seems, is accented with an intersection at its base whose traffic light knows when cyclists are approaching (especially me) and rushes to turn red so as to cease all momentum & thwart any efforts invested prior.

I'm pretty sure I've heard laughter coming from under the light pole. (tax payer-sponsored city employees, for sure)
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Old 05-16-15, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by loimpact View Post
My town is cursed.

Every downhill within our borders, it seems, is accented with an intersection at its base whose traffic light knows when cyclists are approaching (especially me) and rushes to turn red so as to cease all momentum & thwart any efforts invested prior.

I'm pretty sure I've heard laughter coming from under the light pole. (tax payer-sponsored city employees, for sure)
Yes there is evil like that in the world, just like those red "yield" signs out in the country that are located where sight lines make it prudent to nearly stop before proceeding :-), this forces one to accelerate briskly to make the tires sing again with that magic sound of high velocity traverse :-)
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Old 05-16-15, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by loimpact View Post
I do believe Willbird is just being a little tongue-in-cheek w/ the "rules" humor.

The "rules" site is often cited (no pun intended) as comedy relief in regards to what would normally be considered the "extreme" (or perhaps "norm" for those who really think so "Fredly") and at which we make the object of much ridicule.

Oops. Thank you for the education.
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Old 05-16-15, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Oops. Thank you for the education.
Those rules give you something to think about however :-).

Really this should be rule number 1, number 5 should be rule number 2, six should be 3 :-). Fred's might only follow 4,5 and 6....they are savants of those 3 rules :-).
  • Rule #4//It’s all about the bike.


    It is, absolutely, without question, unequivocally, about the bike. Anyone who says otherwise is obviously a ........

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Old 05-16-15, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by greenlight149 View Post
on mountainous terrain where you can recover on the way down, how hard do you go on the way up, and be able to do that repeatedly for a few hours. 120% of FTP is considered anaerobic right? can you recover enough to go deeper than that?
I'm not a regular poster here and just got educated about the rules - which I have not read but...
Over FTP anaerobic? Generally no. FTP is hour max and other than the super fit is not aerobically limited. Most can't do an hour near their AT.
For a fit rider/racer you can go way deeper. You can look at power curves on Strava and see different rider data for those that post.
Short - 5 min - 130% FTP, 2 min -140%FTP, 1 min 170%, 10sec 400%-500% .
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Old 05-16-15, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by greenlight149 View Post
anything over FTP is anaerobic? i dont think so.

you can do a 20 minute effort at 105% FTP, and its largely aerobic.
That would be the 100% part. The 5% is from anaerobic reserves.

Have a look at the model proposed by Monod & Scherrer 50 yrs ago (Critical Power - Dynamic Devices).

P = CP + AWC/T where CP is critical power (similar to FTP), AWC is anaerobic work capacity and T is the time period. Basically higher power levels at shorter periods of time than 1 hr come from anaerobic stores.
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Old 05-17-15, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
That would be the 100% part. The 5% is from anaerobic reserves.

Have a look at the model proposed by Monod & Scherrer 50 yrs ago (Critical Power - Dynamic Devices).

P = CP + AWC/T where CP is critical power (similar to FTP), AWC is anaerobic work capacity and T is the time period. Basically higher power levels at shorter periods of time than 1 hr come from anaerobic stores.
I guess I miss understood the original post, I thought he meant efforts over ftp will almost purely come from anaerobic stores.
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Old 05-17-15, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I'm not a regular poster here and just got educated about the rules - which I have not read but...
Over FTP anaerobic? Generally no. FTP is hour max and other than the super fit is not aerobically limited. Most can't do an hour near their AT.
For a fit rider/racer you can go way deeper. You can look at power curves on Strava and see different rider data for those that post.
Short - 5 min - 130% FTP, 2 min -140%FTP, 1 min 170%, 10sec 400%-500% .
That would depend on how long you can recover to let your body reset the anaerobic stores though, I mean you can't repeatedly hit 140% for 5 minutes and recover for 1 minute, and do that for hours at a time. At least I can't.
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Old 05-17-15, 10:04 AM
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Sure. I can't, my kid can. A race strategy the kids use against adults that are generally faster is attack more. The riders that would have won the first 2-3 attacks are not around the 5-6 attacks.
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Old 05-17-15, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by greenlight149 View Post
That would depend on how long you can recover to let your body reset the anaerobic stores though, I mean you can't repeatedly hit 140% for 5 minutes and recover for 1 minute, and do that for hours at a time. At least I can't.
That is the intent of intervals if I understood it right, 5min hard, 2 easier, 5 hard, 2 easier, 5 hard...then fully recover, the first few deplete "anaerobic reserves"....the following ones are stressing the anaerobic system with no reserves.
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Old 05-17-15, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
That is the intent of intervals if I understood it right, 5min hard, 2 easier, 5 hard, 2 easier, 5 hard...then fully recover, the first few deplete "anaerobic reserves"....the following ones are stressing the anaerobic system with no reserves.
yep intervals would be comparable, and from my personal experience i cant do more than 7 5min intervals with 1min recovery at no where near 140% FTP ( i can do 108% tops)....i would love to be able to go that deep with that short of recoveries.
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Old 05-18-15, 03:31 AM
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I was doing 5,1 and s friend told me she did not recover enough in 1 minute to really hit the next 5 hard. There are so many types of intervals it makes my head spin :-).
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Old 05-18-15, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
I was doing 5,1 and s friend told me she did not recover enough in 1 minute to really hit the next 5 hard. There are so many types of intervals it makes my head spin :-).
Actually, that's the point. One of my go-to workouts is 6x5' @ 105-110% with 1' rest between intervals. It's a great FTP lifter.
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Old 05-18-15, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
Actually, that's the point. One of my go-to workouts is 6x5' @ 105-110% with 1' rest between intervals. It's a great FTP lifter.
But, as I said, there are soooo many different kinds, types, etc.......totally bewildering :-).
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