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Makes me want to buy a no-name carbon frame on Ebay.

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Makes me want to buy a no-name carbon frame on Ebay.

Old 07-01-15, 09:59 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by rms13 View Post
Does any bike manufacturer hold liability if the frame fails? If I have a Specialized carbon bike and it fails and causes serious injury am I going to recoup anything from Specialized? No. Large resellers like Nashbar will stand behind the product and replace it if there is a defect. Honestly, most of the Chinese companies do the same but the difference between paying to ship back to a domestic reseller and paying to ship your frame back to China is a big difference. If someone pays $4-500 on a frame from china and has a problem, they are less likely to pay $100+ to ship it back
You have legal recourse.

Who are you going to sue if your counterfeit frame assplodes underneath you?
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Old 07-01-15, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by redfooj View Post
could have been, but reasonably understood that 99%* of bike publications are payola pop-article trash.

not 100% because i leave open the possibility of journalistic integrity and legitimacy out there; i just hvent found it.
They actually cut apart two frames and tested them in this article.....it's worth a read and their conclusions seem sound enough based on the evidence provided.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:06 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by rms13 View Post
Does any bike manufacturer hold liability if the frame fails? If I have a Specialized carbon bike and it fails and causes serious injury am I going to recoup anything from Specialized? No. Large resellers like Nashbar will stand behind the product and replace it if there is a defect. Honestly, most of the Chinese companies do the same but the difference between paying to ship back to a domestic reseller and paying to ship your frame back to China is a big difference. If someone pays $4-500 on a frame from china and has a problem, they are less likely to pay $100+ to ship it back
Thing is, based on forum posts...most of the Chinese carbon outfits don't even ask for the old good to be shipped back. They'll just send another one, if issues arise. I've read about it happening lots with Chinese CF wheels where issues arose with rims.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:06 AM
  #54  
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I used to work with composites for a defense industry manufacturer. The materials used are available to anyone who knows how to choose the right material for the intended job. An important aspect of manufacturing, especially manufacturing with composite materials is process control and testing. I'm not confident that a small manufacturer, not subject to any industry standards, will turn out products of consistent high quality. In fact, going by news reports, it seems as if some high end manufacturers, such as Toyota, GM, or the people who make the majority of airbags, whose name I don't remember, are shaving safety standards which sometimes results in death.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:10 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Thing is, based on forum posts...most of the Chinese carbon outfits don't even ask for the old good to be shipped back. They'll just send another one, if issues arise. I've read about it happening lots with Chinese CF wheels where issues arose with rims.
I had problems with wheels from china (aluminum not cf) and they would not do anything unless I paid to return them. Maybe other sellers are different but I doubt many people will just ship multiple frames or wheelsets without returning them.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:18 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by RJM View Post
They actually cut apart two frames and tested them in this article.....it's worth a read and their conclusions seem sound enough based on the evidence provided.
Their data is sound (and somewhat interesting) but most of their conclusions (that counterfeit frames are fundamentally unsafe) are not supported by the test data.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:21 AM
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that's an excellent article. Carbon has too many variables to trust counterfeit, density of the weave, direction of the weave curing process. I'm mystified that some people in this thread didn't read. The testing center took portions of the bike and tested them comparing the spesh to the fake. But I guess the tinfoil hat crowd will be convinced the testers would fake the data to support the bike makers. (where's the roll eyes emoticon?)

Surely the guy that paid $600 for the frame did not really it would be comparable to the s-works frame?



Last edited by zvez; 07-01-15 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:23 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Kopsis View Post
Their data is sound (and somewhat interesting) but most of their conclusions (that counterfeit frames are fundamentally unsafe) are not supported by the test data.
But is supported by the experience of the rider in the article who purchased a counterfeit frame.

Either way...$3500 frames (hell, Trek's high end framesets are going for over $4k now) make my Rivendell look inexpensive by comparison.

I have to question the logic of buying a counterfeit "high end" frame when you can get a mid range frame from a reputable maker for about the same price especially given the apparent fact that you aren't getting a "high end" build or carbon with that frame.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:24 AM
  #59  
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and an equal or more number who don't.


Originally Posted by sced View Post
I'm guessing that there are thousands of technical people in Asia, China included, involved in the bike industry that not only know how to make excellent frames and components, but design them and do all of the process engineering as well.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:30 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Maybe you should try taking 5 minutes and reading the article then....instead of wildly conjecturing what someone said, and making yourself look silly.
So it starts off by making a statement about "comparing brand-name to no-name" frames.....and then dissects ONE brand-name frame and ONE no-name frame, and the inference is that these results are to be extrapolated to all brand-name vs. no-name comparisons; with the reader being led to the conclusion that all brand-name rames=quality and safety; and that all no-name frames=crap and instant death. Do I have the gist of it?
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Old 07-01-15, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by RJM View Post
I have to question the logic of buying a counterfeit "high end" frame when you can get a mid range frame from a reputable maker for about the same price especially given the apparent fact that you aren't getting a "high end" build or carbon with that frame.
That is what I really don't get.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Stucky View Post
So it starts off by making a statement about "comparing brand-name to no-name" frames.....and then dissects ONE brand-name frame and ONE no-name frame, and the inference is that these results are to be extrapolated to all brand-name vs. no-name comparisons; with the reader being led to the conclusion that all brand-name rames=quality and safety; and that all no-name frames=crap and instant death. Do I have the gist of it?
I'm not sure where you got that it applies to all no-name frames.

It seemed pretty clear the thrust of the article was about look-a-like counterfeit framesets, that are less than soundly engineered and executed.

Originally Posted by RJM View Post

I have to question the logic of buying a counterfeit "high end" frame when you can get a mid range frame from a reputable maker for about the same price especially given the apparent fact that you aren't getting a "high end" build or carbon with that frame.
Most mid-range bikes are sold as bikes...I have trouble thinking of any that are sold as frame set only. The Big Bike Labels only sell framesets for the top shelf AFAIK.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Stucky View Post
So it starts off by making a statement about "comparing brand-name to no-name" frames.....and then dissects ONE brand-name frame and ONE no-name frame, and the inference is that these results are to be extrapolated to all brand-name vs. no-name comparisons; with the reader being led to the conclusion that all brand-name rames=quality and safety; and that all no-name frames=crap and instant death. Do I have the gist of it?
spot on.

again, lame article/test.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by rms13 View Post
Does any bike manufacturer hold liability if the frame fails?
Of course they do!

Have you ever heard of a fork recall from a counterfeit or open mold manufacturer?

Have you heard of such a thing from Specialized? Why would they recall forks if they had no liability?
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Old 07-01-15, 10:39 AM
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Most mid-range bikes are sold as bikes...I have trouble thinking of any that are sold as frame set only. The Big Bike Labels only sell framesets for the top shelf AFAIK
Trek and Specialized sell their aluminium models as framesets and trek sells the Emonda sl as a frameset. I do wish the Domane 5 series was sold as a frameset though.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bt View Post
spot on.

again, lame article/test.
Except that the article never said any of that. I guess people just read whatever they want to read regardless of what has actually been written.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:44 AM
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This reminds me (stop me if I've told this one before...pretty sure I have, actually) of the guy I met several years ago on a European cycling tour who rode a gorgeous -- but anonymous -- carbon road bike. I asked him who made his unlabeled frame, and he told me "I got it from BikesDirect. $600!"

I asked if he had any hesitation about riding an inexpensive no-name carbon frame, and his reply was "I figure for $600 I can break this frame, replace it, break that frame, replace that one, replace it again...and I still won't have paid as much as my son did for his Cannondale."

But the ultimate irony was: Three days later on the ride, he broke his frame!
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Old 07-01-15, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
Except that the article never said any of that. I guess people just read whatever they want to read regardless of what has actually been written.
you have trouble understanding subliminal messaging?
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Old 07-01-15, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
This reminds me (stop me if I've told this one before...pretty sure I have, actually) of the guy I met several years ago on a European cycling tour who rode a gorgeous -- but anonymous -- carbon road bike. I asked him who made his unlabeled frame, and he told me "I got it from BikesDirect. $600!"

I asked if he had any hesitation about riding an inexpensive no-name carbon frame, and his reply was "I figure for $600 I can break this frame, replace it, break that frame, replace that one, replace it again...and I still won't have paid as much as my son did for his Cannondale."

But the ultimate irony was: Three days later on the ride, he broke his frame!
LOL. Freak things do happen, you know.

This year on Tour de Nebraska, one rider had a Bike Friday (I believe, it was a folding bike with bizzarro sized fork not replaceable in the field) fork shear clean off just below the fork crown. Clean. Looked like it got cut by a bandsaw.

Another poor sod, during a long day with rough roads (bad joint repairs in the shoulder)...had the spring in his old sprund saddle snap.
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Old 07-01-15, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by bt View Post
you have trouble understanding subliminal messaging?
I'm just not paranoid and think everyone is out there to get me. I can read and article, grab the relevant data and form my own conclusions regardless of the author's intention.
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Old 07-01-15, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by zvez View Post
that's an excellent article. Carbon has too many variables to trust counterfeit, density of the weave, direction of the weave curing process. I'm mystified that some people in this thread didn't read. The testing center took portions of the bike and tested them comparing the spesh to the fake. But I guess the tinfoil hat crowd will be convinced the testers would fake the data to support the bike makers. (where's the roll eyes emoticon?)
i have no dog in the fight. my last 3 bikes are overweight for the price but purchased because they elicited faux-romantic images of a lombardy maestro hunched over a welding torch.

that said, i question your judgement for not recognizing the thick stench of that article
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Old 07-01-15, 11:15 AM
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Redfooj, there is a distinct difference between critical thinking and reasoning vs. thinking critically of everything and finding reasons to support your predetermined opinion. Your exact attitude is what attributes to the scientific illiteracy of the modern age. You have this ingrained notion that ALL (sorry, 99%) of journalists are out to make some money under the table to support their advertisers. This prevents you from interpreting the article for what it is: a service article. It's a service to the public for them to take these two frames, run some tests on equipment not generally available to the average cyclists, and present their findings as food for thought. Other than the singular results they presented base on this very small sample, NO direct wide-sweeping claims were made against any "no-name" manufacturers (heck, they didn't even state the eBay seller the original bike was bought from). Where they see clear issues with this singular counterfeit frame, they make it known. The idea that the article is saying "anything not made by our advertisers is dangerous junk" is something everyone else here is pulling out of their ass.
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Old 07-01-15, 11:18 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by redfooj View Post
i have no dog in the fight. my last 3 bikes are overweight for the price but purchased because they elicited faux-romantic images of a lombardy maestro hunched over a welding torch.

that said, i question your judgement for not recognizing the thick stench of that article
I think it's pretty clear from the article that the counterfeit S-Works frame tested is inferior to the real product in pretty much every possible way. We've seen a few attempts at comparisons of knock-offs to the real things (some more rigorous than others of course), and I haven't seen any that show the knockoffs to be even close to the equals of the real products.

As always, caveat emptor.
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Old 07-01-15, 11:47 AM
  #74  
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unfortunately you have an agonizingly simplistic approach to this, the guy below said it best. I fear you didn't bother to read this article.

The testing was done by Microbac, now a websearch shows this to be a huge testing organization for a myriad of things. So for this article to have the stench of favoritism you espouse Microbac would have to be in on that.

Microbac Laboratories, Inc.

The article was pretty impartial and even if as you say the writer is biased (I don't think he is) the rigidity tests etc done by Microbac speak for themselves.

I know you've no dog in the fight, but a websearch will show a wealth of resources at just how complex carbon fibre fabrication design and manufacturing truly are.


Originally Posted by redfooj View Post
i have no dog in the fight. my last 3 bikes are overweight for the price but purchased because they elicited faux-romantic images of a lombardy maestro hunched over a welding torch.

that said, i question your judgement for not recognizing the thick stench of that article
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Old 07-01-15, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
To me, this is pretty simple.

1) do not buy a counterfeit bike.

2) a generic Asian made carbon fiber frame may or may not be a decent, safe bike. If you go that route it pays to know with whom you are dealing.
+1


Horribly written article though. Ridiculous conclusions.
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