Fastfwd01

If anyone would care to chime in on this and save me some digging around I would appreciate it. I'm still sort of a new cyclist with a little less than a year on my first road bike. My first road bike has a 50/34 and came with a 5800 105 Groupset and 11/32 cassette. I picked up a 12-25 because it's pretty flat around here and I love those tight gear ratios now giving me the opportunity to keep my cadence in the mid 90s. I seem to average around 96rpms after making an effort to try to increase my cadence.

New bike is Dura Ace with a short cage and a 'subcompact' 52/36 front and comes with a 12/25. I didn't really think it through and didn't take the bike shop up on making a swap during the sale. I frankly thought I would probably pick up another cassette anyway and I was thinking I might need to do the Ultegra mid cage swap too at some point.

Anyway, now that the shock of taking a second look at Dura Ace cassette prices hit me I'm communicating with the bike shop about making my lightest hill climbing cassette the more hill climbing oriented 12-28. The salesman is saying they might only have a 11-28 in stock, but I think I'm going to make sure I get the 12-28.

I've seen conflicting info on this. Some say that Shimano says you can only use a 27 max with the Dura Ace short cage. I've seen others make forum posts about knowing people running a 11-32 with a short cage.

I haven't actually even ridden the new bike yet because I don't want to put any wear on the cassette before I make the swap deal, but I'm a little concerned that even a 12-28 with a subcompact is going to be pretty tough on serious inclines. Maybe I need to man up? I've not been a big cycling follower, but I've gathered that anything over a 12-25 was traditionally a mark of shame for a 'pro cyclist', but I'm no pro by any stretch. I like my compact and 11/32 on steep inclines.

Any suggestions on this?

redlude97

12-28 should be no problem with the short cage as long as the chain is sized correctly. No shame in running 12-28 also. My lowest gear is 36x27 and it gets me up plenty of big hills, but your mileage may vary. With 11 speed cassettes nowadays, narrow cassette ranges are no longer necessary to keep tight gearing with a bailout gear or two.

69chevy

Don't base your gearing on the rumored "shame" of a pro cyclist with tall cogs.

Gear the bike how it best serves you.

If there's shame in a taller cog than 25t then there must be pros who didn't get the memo, or just don't care.

Fastfwd01

I watch a lot of GCN and they reference this often, but cite what the pros are running currently and at least occasionally note a 11-32 with a tone of shock almost. Me, personally, I think I'll be looking pretty seriously about doing whatever cage swap I need to do to get a 11-32 option. I realize it might be quicker shifting with the short cage, but I'm not crit racing with this bike. I will hopefully do some climbing with it when the opportunity presents itself. I will be seeking out those opportunities. Not because I'm good at it, but it just seems like the more enjoyable challenge if you can consider it enjoyable.

merlinextraligh

I'm pretty sure Dura Ace 9000 is spec'd for a 28 tooth maximum rear cog, so the 28 will be fine.

It will work with the 11-32, but not ideally. Problem is that you'd be well past maximum wrap capacity, and with the chain sized properly, it will be too loose in the small ring, and small cogs.

Better answer if you need lower gears, and don't want to use an Ultegra 6800 GS RD, is to go with 50/34 front chainrings, and 11/28 in the rear.

the 50/11 is higher than a 52/12, and the 34/28 gets you a bit lower gearing, albeit not quite as low as 36/32

69chevy

+1.

Just make sure you are seated when looking up DA chainring prices.

merlinextraligh

Or you could just force the 11-32 on, adjust the B screw, shorten the chain, and never, cross-chain.

69chevy

And then argue that it was good advice for 30 pages.

mercator

The 11-32 is pretty far out of the short cage spec.
I'm running a short cage 7800 series derailleur with an ultegra 12-30 cassette with no problems, although the B screw is maxed out.

Drew Eckhardt 

If you weigh 135 pounds like me and ride a 15 pound bike, the 60g you save going from an Ultegra 11-28 to Dura Ace will make you 0.08% faster up the steepest hills (that's 3 seconds on a 1-hour climb).

If you're bigger like most people the gain will be less.

While I wouldn't hesitate spending money to keep the 16 cog (I spent more to upgrade to 9 speed when Campagnolo discontinued 8 speed cassettes with the 18) the weight savings won't get you anything.

Loose weight. If you don't have noticeable vascularity when warm and six pack abs you have fat left to loose. I weigh 10-15 15 pounds (4500 - 6800 grams versus the 60 you're trying to save) more when I'm thin by normal peoples' standards but not cycling fit.
Bigger people have more.

Depends on the mountains. I found gears like 34x23 or 39x26 sufficient for everything in the Colorado Rockies. Monte Zoncolan would call for more.

TrojanHorse

Yeah, at 135 lbs that sounds like sage advice, especially if you're a strong rider. I'm 6'2" 220 and I CAN get by with 34x26 but 34x28 keeps my knees happy... and I need... I say NEED 34x32 for the really steep roads near me (> 15%). I live in a pretty hilly area though.

I put a wifli RD on my bike and swap cassettes as necessary. it's easy enough and there's no way the weight difference with the wifli RD is slowing me down.

Fastfwd01

Thanks for input. I know that I can stand to lose a lot of weight and this is really petty to waste any time over much less drive back to the bike shop and hassle them over it, but I would rather my most hill climbing cassette be the lighter Dura Ace and a potential 'flat land' cassette be the heavier Ultegra that might possibly be more durable from what I gather and better suited to whatever training I might do on the new bike. I generally intend to keep this bike for events or travel and train on the first bike.

I also realize that in terms of 11 speed vs. the older 10, 9, etc. speed cassettes that this might seem like splitting hairs. I do realize a difference in jumps with the 11-32 though and the subcompact vs. compact chainrings has me concerned for what to expect. It may all work out and be for no reason.

I just wanted to make sure there was no absolute known that a 12-28 wouldn't work with a short cage and if there were any suggestions for a more hill climbing oriented setup for somebody spoiled with a 50/34 and 11/32. Thanks!

andr0id

Well, it's actually less expensive to buy a complete new crank set from someplace in Europe than to order new chain rings.
Same for Ultegra.

OP, when it comes time to replace that cassette, just get an Ultegra CS-6800. They are a lot less expensive than DA and last longer.
IMO, the only time that you should use a DA cassette is if it came with the group or somebody else is paying for it!

UnfilteredDregs

Actually, you've confused me... You have 12-25 or 11-32 on the 105 bike?

hyhuu

Isn't subcompact supposed to me smaller than compact?

woodcraft

I think the term is 'mid compact'.

You said that you picked up an 11/25 cassette, did you use it?

If so, the low gear is slightly higher than the 36/28 on the new bike.

dtrain

I'd go with 12-28. If you didn't feel like you needed the 11t with a 50/34...than you really shouldn't need it with a 52/36. That gives you some of the tighter spacing you've come to enjoy (vs. an 11-28). Also, 36/28 combo is lower than 34/25 that you are using for most of your riding now.

If you plan to do more serious climbing (with the mid-compact 52/36): a GS rear derailleur, 11-32 cassette, and extra chain might need to be on your shopping list.

dtrain

I think some of that applies here.

Fastfwd01

It came with an 11-32 and I bought a 12-25 for where I mostly ride because it is so flat here. I use the 11-32 in any events that involve any degree of climbing.

rms13

So you've been riding 50/34 with 12-25 and now you got 52/36 with 12-25 and that is too hard? You can get 34t DA chainring for $38 and bcd is same for all DA cranks now

Shimano Dura Ace 9000 Chainrings | Road Bike Chainrings | Merlin Cycles

Fastfwd01

Well, this is exactly what I believed, but I didn't know if perhaps there was something I wasn't aware of that I should know.

I'm also a little timid about just slapping new longer cages and experimenting with the new bike without absolutely knowing what I'm getting into. The first road bike wasn't such a concern to experiment on. The new one it is sort of a big deal to not screw it up.

GuitarBob

I'm with Drew here. For me, being a mere mortal, DA cassettes don't make much sense. Sure, they are marginally lighter, but they cost 2-3x times more, won't last as long, and won't shift any better than Ultegra cassettes. If money is no object, then sure, but otherwise buy yourself a few Ultegra cassettes with different spreads and change them out when called for.

Fastfwd01

Yeah, I think I got it on the Ultegra cassette thing - this is a swap on a new bike. So, no charge beyond the gas to go back down which is a consideration, but I can make a weekend out of it. I should have done it during the sale, but I didn't fully flush out the details on the whole thing and at the time I just thought no biggie on getting an Ultegra climbing cassette. In retrospect I would rather have my more climbing oriented cassette be the Dura Ace. I think I already said something like this - maybe exactly this... a few times already. Thanks though.

rms13

Another thing to note is that Shimano doesn't make DA cassettes in 11-32. They only come 11-23, 11-25, 11-28, 12-25 and 12-28

RIP Chainrings

I'm running a 50/34 ulteg 12-30 and there are still grades that have me spin at 300 watts on the 34-30. Basically there no shame in having gears for a spectrum of terrains. Nobody wants to do 45 cadence on a steep cause they ran out of gears. Better prepared than not