Sincitycycler

At Trek seminar at my LBS shop last night, I asked the west coast Trek/Lemond rep about the benefits of different frame materials, and he mentioned that one pro likes a steel framed Lemond ( didn't ask who) for climbing because steel is "springy" and he can get a a better rhythm and feel from his bike during hard climbing as opposed to a stiff frame like aluminum.

Interesting...

Grasschopper

That has been said here before I think. People refer to steel "winding up" like a spring...I assume it would then unwind and rewind giving the effect that you describe.

Point

You are right about the spring effect. Any material that is not stressed beyond its yield point will return to its original position. I doesn't matter if it's aluminum, Ti, CF, or steel.

Stiffness is one of the great debates around here I've noticed. Greater stiffness isn't an end all for climbing, as long as the frame suits the rider.

Read The Master, Sheldon Brown's article on frame materials.

sydney

Yeah, and in todays world if he is riding seeel on a climbing stage he is likely somewhere off the back even to he does have 'rhythm'....LOL...

mrballistic

if the other reports about trek are true, he may have been trying to sell up the steel lemonds, because trek can't seem to ship carbon bikes this year

AlanS

The quote in red, below, is from Sheldon Brown:
Torsional/lateral stiffness
This is mainly related to the stresses generated by the forces you create from pedaling. Any frame will flex around the bottom bracket a bit in response to pedaling loads. This flex can be felt, and many riders assume that it is consuming (wasting) pedaling effort. Actually, that's not the case, because the metals used in bicycle frames are very efficient springs, and the energy gets returned at the end of the power stroke, so little or nothing is actually lost. While there is no actual loss of efficiency from a "flexy" frame, most cyclists find the sensation unpleasant, and prefer a frame that is fairly stiff in the drive-train area. This is more of a concern for larger, heavier riders, and for those who make a habit of standing up to pedal.

Yes, It's very believable that frames behave like "efficient springs" and very little energy is lost in the frame itself. However, wouldn't a flexy frame set the RIDER into oscillations? The energy is lost in the oscillations of the rider, not the frame (this point is made very clear in the book "Bicycling Science"). So I would think that a flexy frame is LESS efficient than a stiff frame.

ImprezaDrvr

Yes, I'm sure you're right. Hell, that steel bike could weigh a pound or more than the carbon bikes out there, and no rider could possibly overcome that at the professional level.

ImprezaDrvr

It's not like a good steel bike is similar to a wet noodle here, folks. Sure there are and have always been poorly built bikes of all materials that ride like crap. I rode a Giant Cadex lugged carbon bike for a year and the bottom bracket on that thing moved a good half inch laterally through a full pedalstroke.

But, then, it's much easier for everyone to categorize materials by one word descriptions instead of understanding that the build of the frame is as important as the material it's built with.

sydney

Tell me about the pros riding steel in mountain stages..... ... Said with all due respect to better 'rhythm'...LOL

ImprezaDrvr

Just making a simple point, but if it makes you feel better to continue to condescend, carry on.

You don't know someone that used the screen name "Pokey", do you?

AlanS

My last post was in no way meant to disparage steel frames. I'm just pointing out that ANY frame that is "flexy" is likely to be less efficient than a stiff frame. The energy is not lost in the frame -- the energy is lost as the rider undergoes oscillations.

Steelrider

I've always thought Sheldon Brown has a ton of good information on his site for new and not-so-new riders alike. However, the general statement that little or nothing is actually lost strikes me as ridiculous, especially when mentioning larger and heavier riders in almost the same breath. Even without empirical data, you have to know that cadence has a huge part to play in that discussion and if you're standing on the pedals as a larger rider, your cadence is likely dropping like a stone, making any benefit that you might get from the "spring" effect non-existent. Which means that any flex translates only to power that is not going to the drivetrain.

Point

Remembering my physics and engineering courses, any energy spent flexing the frame will be returned to the system as a whole. No other way about it.

Remember too, that the flex "felt" while pedaling is the sum of the flex in your shoes, pedals, crank, BB, frame. If you're standing and cranking hard, there's also flex in your stem and handlebars to take into effect. Just singling out the frame is ridiculous.

Steelrider

True, but returned where? This does not mean that the energy returned will be returned efficiently to the drivetrain and translated into forward motion.

Avalanche325

Except for the minute amount that is lost in the material matrix itself as heat. OK, so it's not even enough to measure.............. Hey, you can get a really flexy frame for the winter and keep yourself warm while you ride.

2Rodies

This is true one of the best climbing bike I've ever owned was my Vitus and that thing was about as flexy as it gets.

AlanS

Yes a very small amount of energy is dissipated in the frame. But you are ignoring the vibrational deformation induced in the bicycle rider, which leads to a substantial energy loss. An ideal spring may be a good model for the frame, but not for the human body.

wagathon

Good point. It is easy to see how energy that is put into a vaulter's pole is returned when the pole unbends. It is not so easy for me to see how bending a steel frame sideways at the bottom bracket will help to turn the cranks when the frame unbends.

roadgator

a heaveir bike with thiner more flexible tubes (ie. steel) will have a lower reasonant frequency. the closer the frequnecy a bike wants to flex at is to that which the rider is pedaling at, the more likely they are "resonate" and reinforce eachother. aluminum's is probobly so high that you couldnt generate enough torque to flex it much at that candence anyway.

i wouldnt say this if i hadent also noticed that i can gear mash up a nearby pitch on my old heavy steel bike in a gear one or two teath taller then i can on my lighter aluminum bike. with that low speed it kinda feels like the steel is pedaling with you while the aluminum is just a wall to press against.

fogrider

the flex of the frame when the right leg is gone down will result in the spring unwinding when the left leg powers through...Greg Lemond use to say ride steel in the spring, go to ti in the early summer and carbon for the tour! I know many guys on steel and they're fast enough that it doesn't matter if you're on carbon, alum or ti! I have a steel ride and I do like the way it climbs...and it is not a springly frame!