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Tire suggestions

Old 10-13-15, 06:58 AM
  #1  
wesb
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Tire suggestions

I recently purchased a 2009 Trek 1.2 WSD for my fiancé because she wants to start riding with me. She is convinced that she wants a little more than just a road tire while she is starting. We have very little gravel around but due to a lot of road construction around she says she would feel safer with a little bit of traction on the outside edges. Anything I can do to get her out there with me I would like to do. Anyone have any suggestions for a minimal tread cyclocross tire that would fit this bike? Thanks in advance for your help.
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Old 10-13-15, 07:07 AM
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Make sure you check clearance. My wife's 2.1 WSD will fit a 25mm max width. If she wants knobs on the outsides, it might not work, but if she's just looking for a tread pattern, Continental tires have that.
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Old 10-13-15, 08:22 PM
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Your first problem is that logically, there's absolutely no reason to do that. On hard surfaces tread gives you less traction not more. It actually makes turning and grip on the edges of the tire worse because it causes the tire to squirm around on the road when you're turning. A lot of times people think "more tread means more traction that's why mountain bikes have them!" but more tread **only** helps on surfaces made up of looser material - dirt, gravel, etc. It's worse on a hard surface.

Your second problem - let's assume you'd want to do it anyways - is that that bike is unlikely to be able to take a cyclocross tire. The tire is likely to be to fat to fit into the frame (which is designed for a skinny tire). If you really, really want a fatter grippier tire, most likely you'll need to return the bike and get a cyclocross or other bike that's designed to take a wider tire (they don't make 25c tires with any serious tread on the sides as far as I know because they'd be useless). Someone who can see the bike in person at the bike shop could give you a better idea, or you could take a picture of the front of the bike and how much space there is between the frame and the front tire and post it here for a guess.

The grippiest tire I know of that would likely fit that bike would be the Continental gp4000 II:
https://amzn.com/B00G8QGVPS

It's not going to have tread, but it does have one of the best compounds they make for grip on the road. Even then I can't be 100% for sure a 28c tire would fit onto your bike that a quick search suggests came with a 25c tire.
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Old 10-13-15, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by wesb View Post
I recently purchased a 2009 Trek 1.2 WSD for my fiancé because she wants to start riding with me. She is convinced that she wants a little more than just a road tire while she is starting. We have very little gravel around but due to a lot of road construction around she says she would feel safer with a little bit of traction on the outside edges. Anything I can do to get her out there with me I would like to do. Anyone have any suggestions for a minimal tread cyclocross tire that would fit this bike? Thanks in advance for your help.
Techincal problem is easy to solve. However, it is a WOMAN. If she didn't buy the bike herself and isn't pulling your arm to go riding, just forget about it.
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Old 10-13-15, 11:47 PM
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Um..... teach her that sand/gravel is dangerous. No traction! I am not sure that it would be fair to compare riding in sand on a trail with riding in sand on hard pavement. Today there was "road work" and that meant a huge amount of water making a large puddle that was in the bike line. Gulp! I slowed way down and took some of the lane for myself.
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Old 10-14-15, 12:13 AM
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Going up my driveway, paved, with a dusting of fir needles, I found that when it was wet, I would break my balding Origin8 Elimin8ers loose (essentially treadless), and they would spin for a half a pedal stroke with absolutely no gip.

On the other hand, I would would still periodically break my Schwalbe Marathon Plus tire loose, but it would feel like I had about 50% traction while spinning.

Sorry, I meant to get some power data with a variety of tires, but never got it. So, just a subjective report of 2 tires for now. Maybe more data later.

Anyway, the Schwalbe Marathon Plus has a moderate tread that should last for at least a couple of thousand miles riding. And also give you fairly good flat protection. And is available in a 25mm tire.



It is a heavy, tough tire.
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Old 10-14-15, 01:40 AM
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On pavement, thread and tyre rubber compound is what makes the difference.

If 2 tyres with the same rubber compound are compared, bald one will grip better - wet or dry, than the tyre with thread. On pavement that is.

When there's anything soft enough so that threads can dig into, then threaded tyres will grip better.
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Old 10-14-15, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Going up my driveway, paved, with a dusting of fir needles, I found that when it was wet, I would break my balding Origin8 Elimin8ers loose (essentially treadless), and they would spin for a half a pedal stroke with absolutely no gip.

On the other hand, I would would still periodically break my Schwalbe Marathon Plus tire loose, but it would feel like I had about 50% traction while spinning.

Sorry, I meant to get some power data with a variety of tires, but never got it. So, just a subjective report of 2 tires for now. Maybe more data later.

Anyway, the Schwalbe Marathon Plus has a moderate tread that should last for at least a couple of thousand miles riding. And also give you fairly good flat protection. And is available in a 25mm tire.



It is a heavy, tough tire.
Great recco.
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Old 10-14-15, 08:32 AM
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Vittoria Rubino Pro III (available as slicks or with tread pattern). Traction depends largely on road surface. I went with slicks because I typically don't ride when it is wet out, and the majority of the roads I ride on are free of sand/gravel. Slicks on dry clear roads offer incredible traction. I have a set with tread pattern that I will use in the winter/spring when roads tend to be wet from time to time.
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Old 10-14-15, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by series1811 View Post
Vittoria Rubino Pro III (available as slicks or with tread pattern). Traction depends largely on road surface. I went with slicks because I typically don't ride when it is wet out, and the majority of the roads I ride on are free of sand/gravel. Slicks on dry clear roads offer incredible traction. I have a set with tread pattern that I will use in the winter/spring when roads tend to be wet from time to time.
Thread does not improve traction on pavemen. Even when it is wet. Thread reduces traction on wet pavement - compared to slick profile with the same rubber compound.
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Old 10-14-15, 09:16 AM
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That Schwalbe looks like a good option. Don't get a cyclocross tire, just get something with a very visible thread to make her feel safe, even though it is actually doing the opposite.
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Old 10-14-15, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
Thread does not improve traction on pavemen. Even when it is wet. Thread reduces traction on wet pavement - compared to slick profile with the same rubber compound.
It's a complex dynamic, and while I believe what you say as a general rule, I think there are exceptions.

First, all tread is not equal. Some is characterized by tall blocks or deep grooves (as with the Marathon above) which reduces the surface area of the contact patch, while other tread designs, like a light file such as found on a Panaracer GravelKing, If they do at all, do so minimally, as the very low blocks of soft rubber deform under rider weight.

On an extremely smooth, dry surface where contact and available friction are at 100% of capacity, you want as much tread on the ground as possible. However, on a less than perfectly flat road surface, where there are small depressions (perfectly expressed in the case of asphalt surfaces), a smooth tread may not deform into those spaces, effectively reducing the surface area available for traction.

Now, take that imperfectly smooth surface and wet it, and you've reduce the available amount of traction-generating friction even more. A fine textured tread can deform into those depressions and crevices, regaining some surface contact and, therefore grip, otherwise lost to a smooth tread. Likewise, a heavily textured tread which does not deform into (or conform to) the small crevices of the wer roadway will only further suffer lower traction than a smooth tread.

Of course, the degree to which this matters or may be be noticable is highly variable on many conditions including rubber compound, tread design, tire size, inflation pressure, road surface, road condition, speed, etc. If one never goes out and pushes cornering limits in the wet, nor needs to do hard stops in the wet, then probably maximum wet traction is not an issue.
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Old 10-14-15, 11:13 AM
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My choice for durable road tire is the Conti GP 4 Season. I've never flatted one.
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Old 10-14-15, 11:30 AM
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I like Trek's very own Hardcase Lite tires. I am running sets on two different bikes right now and have never flatted. The outer rubber has a lot of cuts and punctures. The inner belt has stopped all objects cold. Bontrager probably makes a Hardcase in a lightly treaded pattern.
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Old 10-14-15, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
It's a complex dynamic, and while I believe what you say as a general rule, I think there are exceptions.

First, all tread is not equal. Some is characterized by tall blocks or deep grooves (as with the Marathon above) which reduces the surface area of the contact patch, while other tread designs, like a light file such as found on a Panaracer GravelKing, If they do at all, do so minimally, as the very low blocks of soft rubber deform under rider weight.

On an extremely smooth, dry surface where contact and available friction are at 100% of capacity, you want as much tread on the ground as possible. However, on a less than perfectly flat road surface, where there are small depressions (perfectly expressed in the case of asphalt surfaces), a smooth tread may not deform into those spaces, effectively reducing the surface area available for traction.

Now, take that imperfectly smooth surface and wet it, and you've reduce the available amount of traction-generating friction even more. A fine textured tread can deform into those depressions and crevices, regaining some surface contact and, therefore grip, otherwise lost to a smooth tread. Likewise, a heavily textured tread which does not deform into (or conform to) the small crevices of the wer roadway will only further suffer lower traction than a smooth tread.

Of course, the degree to which this matters or may be be noticable is highly variable on many conditions including rubber compound, tread design, tire size, inflation pressure, road surface, road condition, speed, etc. If one never goes out and pushes cornering limits in the wet, nor needs to do hard stops in the wet, then probably maximum wet traction is not an issue.
On pavement, where threads can't dig into the surface - the less thread the better. Extremes are knobby tyres - the worst and slick tyres - the best. Yes, there is a situation where a piece of thread could grip just behind a small groove in the asphalt, but on 99% of situations it doesn't line up - so has no benefit, just reduces traction.

Slick tyre, wide, with lower pressure, so that it can make shape to fit the road texture is as good as it gets on a bicycle on a dry or wet pavement. Everything else is just marketing. It's easier to take people's money, than to explain what I'm trying to explain now.
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Old 10-15-15, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
On pavement, where threads can't dig into the surface - the less thread the better. Extremes are knobby tyres - the worst and slick tyres - the best. Yes, there is a situation where a piece of thread could grip just behind a small groove in the asphalt, but on 99% of situations it doesn't line up - so has no benefit, just reduces traction.

Slick tyre, wide, with lower pressure, so that it can make shape to fit the road texture is as good as it gets on a bicycle on a dry or wet pavement. Everything else is just marketing. It's easier to take people's money, than to explain what I'm trying to explain now.
I have no idea where you get your "facts," like "99% and "just marketing," but Conti, Challenge, Specialized, and Vittoria uniformly disagree with you:

Technical FAQ: Tire grip in wet conditions - VeloNews.com

So, sorry, I'm going with the tire pros and my own reasoning on this, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
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Old 10-15-15, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I have no idea where you get your "facts," like "99% and "just marketing," but Conti, Challenge, Specialized, and Vittoria uniformly disagree with you:

Technical FAQ: Tire grip in wet conditions - VeloNews.com

So, sorry, I'm going with the tire pros and my own reasoning on this, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
I believe to be literate enough and that my English is not that bad. From what I understand, Continental doesn't say that thread improves wet traction. Here's the quote:

"Tread patterns are largely aesthetic, and although they provide texture that can aid traction both wet and dry, they do not provide channeling like car tires that are actually effective in reducing hydroplaning.So what is the magic formula for improved wet grip? It’s not a magic formula at all, and a little bit of trial and error dependent on the rider, conditions, and equipment: reduced pressure depending upon bike/rider weight, tread compound, and tire width all help. Choose at least a 25mm with Continental Black Chili Compound and start by reducing pressure around 10 percent from normal riding pressure.
— Brett Hahn"

Pressure, compound and width are no1 from the way I see it.

Anyhow, I have no interest in selling slick tyres, so you too can believe what you want. If anyone has some on line test data, it would be nice to post it, I don't.

Even tyre producers have given up trying to explain - now they make 0.2 mm deep "threads" so that customers are happy. Though 0.0 mm threads would grip even better, but just slightly.

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Old 10-15-15, 11:38 PM
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Schwalbe Marathon are good all-around tires.

If your wife is not comfortable with slicks, 700 X 28 Marathon threaded tires will calm her fears.

They handle great on the road, on hardpack and on gravel.
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Old 10-16-15, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post


I believe to be literate enough and that my English is not that bad. From what I understand, Continental doesn't say that thread improves wet traction. Here's the quote:

"Tread patterns are largely aesthetic, and although they provide texture that can aid traction both wet and dry, they do not provide channeling like car tires that are actually effective in reducing hydroplaning.So what is the magic formula for improved wet grip? It’s not a magic formula at all, and a little bit of trial and error dependent on the rider, conditions, and equipment: reduced pressure depending upon bike/rider weight, tread compound, and tire width all help. Choose at least a 25mm with Continental Black Chili Compound and start by reducing pressure around 10 percent from normal riding pressure.
— Brett Hahn"

Pressure, compound and width are no1 from the way I see it.

Anyhow, I have no interest in selling slick tyres, so you too can believe what you want. If anyone has some on line test data, it would be nice to post it, I don't.

Even tyre producers have given up trying to explain - now they make 0.2 mm deep "threads" so that customers are happy. Though 0.0 mm threads would grip even better, but just slightly.
I appreciate the language challenge, and thank you for facing it and participating in the forum, thereby making it a better place!

The Continental comment you quote is unequivocal however: "[tread patterns]...provide texture that can aid traction both wet and dry..."

As I said before, the degree to which the tread texture aids traction is complicated to assess, because of the many variables, some of which I mentioned earlier, but that it tread patterns can aid traction in the wet is without doubt among those who have studied the matter.
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Old 10-16-15, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I appreciate the language challenge, and thank you for facing it and participating in the forum, thereby making it a better place!

The Continental comment you quote is unequivocal however: "[tread patterns]...provide texture that can aid traction both wet and dry..."

As I said before, the degree to which the tread texture aids traction is complicated to assess, because of the many variables, some of which I mentioned earlier, but that it tread patterns can aid traction in the wet is without doubt among those who have studied the matter.
Do you have links to any tests or experiments to confirm that? For bicycle tyres on paved roads.

Having said that, I don't have any data to support my claims, but google search did come up with this article:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/slicks.html

The man claims to have tried tests, but doesn't provide any links or data to verify.

Late Sheldon seems to have agreed as well:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#tread

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Old 10-16-15, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
Having said that, I don't have any data to support my claims, but google search did come up with this article:
Tires with Smooth Tread by Jobst Brandt
Let's not keep bringing this up. The examples used to justify it simply don't lend credibility.

Motorcycles do NOT use slick tread in wet weather. They use heavily channeled tread. Yes, they're round and round profiled but not slick.

Tread is used to break the surface tension of the water on the ground. Yes it's likely a black art but no it's not useless.
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Old 10-16-15, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon View Post
Let's not keep bringing this up. The examples used to justify it simply don't lend credibility.

Motorcycles do NOT use slick tread in wet weather. They use heavily channeled tread. Yes, they're round and round profiled but not slick.

Tread is used to break the surface tension of the water on the ground. Yes it's likely a black art but no it's not useless.
My front and rear motorcycle tyres are slick in the middle. And those tyres are 10 or more times wider (rear especially) than bicycle tyres. And the bike goes above 150 km/h.

Avoiding hydroplaning is the only reason threads are used on pavement. Hydroplaning doesn't happen on bicycle tyres because of (small) width, round shape, relatively low speeds (well below 100 km/h). For motorcycles having lower traction because of threads is less critical than avoiding hydroplaning. Since bicycles don't hydroplane, there's no reason to have any threads on pavement - they only reduce traction. The bike tyre manufacturers put threads are:

1) tyres are made for riding off pavement as well,
or 2) it is easier to take people's money, than have them realise that thread is useless, even harmful, for pavement traction - whether dry or wet.
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Old 10-16-15, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
Do you have links to any tests or experiments to confirm that? For bicycle tyres on paved roads.

Having said that, I don't have any data to support my claims, but google search did come up with this article:

Tires with Smooth Tread by Jobst Brandt

The man claims to have tried tests, but doesn't provide any links or data to verify.

Late Sheldon seems to have agreed as well:

Bicycle Tires and Tubes
If you choose to ignore the statements of people from the most preeminent tire manufacturers in the world, and do so without any reason, without having your own bona fides, you're just not having an honest and serious conversation.

Even a small gesture of seriousness, like ceasing to use the word "thread" rather than "tread pattern" would do much to demonstrate you may be something other than a joker.
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Old 10-16-15, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
If you choose to ignore the statements of people from the most preeminent tire manufacturers in the world, and do so without any reason, without having your own bona fides, you're just not having an honest and serious conversation.

Even a small gesture of seriousness, like ceasing to use the word "thread" rather than "tread pattern" would do much to demonstrate you may be something other than a joker.
English is not my mother tongue. Does that automatically mark me as a joker? How many languages do you speak?


I quoted Continental who sad:

"Tread patterns are largely aesthetic".

But you do have a point. Until an experiment is made, it is argument without evidence - both pro and con "tread pattern". My experience does confirm that slick tyres grip better. Knobby tyres are the worst, both dry and wet. Tyres with tread profile like marathon plus are a bit better. Slick tyres are the best. For cold and wet, the best tyre is slick with a bit "softer" compound, like Continental GP 4 seasons (they have a line, like 0.1 mm deep, for people who think like you i believe ). But that is personal, not experimental scientific evidence though. Real thing would be an unbiased, documented experiment.



Last edited by Bike Gremlin; 10-16-15 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 10-16-15, 11:28 AM
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SpikedLemon
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
it is easier to take people's money, than have them realise that thread is useless, even harmful, for pavement traction - whether dry or wet.
This has dropped deeply into your re-statement of your personal convictions & ideas. I may as well have a religious debate. Once you convince top motorcycle race teams to run slicks in the rain and win: you're on to something.
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