Counter Steering - When to Use?
 

So I've been experimenting with counter steering. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2P6_NRG0Ro or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc

It all makes sense on paper and I can do it in practice, but why would I want to? If I do the regular lean and then turn handle bars I can turn quite sharply and safely.

Who would have though turning a bike would be so involved.

The counter steer is subtle and starts the lean. You just don't notice it.

Steering a 1 liter sportbike into a sweeping turn requires more counter steer than it does on a lightweight, twitchy road bike.

I recall having to put pressure on the inner bar. Not so much on a bicycle.

Sure I know what counter steering is, but I don't get why I need it. I can turn plenty sharp with the regular lean (no counter steer) and turn bars.

Don't overthink it ... if you are going around corners, and you are not high siding (that is, falling over to the outside of the turn), then you are countersteering. Those are your two choices. You may not know that's what you are doing, but that is what you are doing.

You (OP) may think that, but you're mistaken.

edit: auldgeunquers beat me to it!

Most riders figure this stuff out when they're 5 yrs old and never think about it again.

Right. You can't think about it. It's just something you do when you need to.

Well try it if you want, almost guarantee that it will throw you off balance.

I saw a reference to a cyclist countersteering, and thought that I never do that. But as it turns out, your bike does it for you. Turn normally and watch the bars on a turn where you don't really have to pay that much attention. You'll see the bars countersteer for you. A motorcycle has so much momentum that the rider has to upset it a little to get it to turn.

Don't fool yourself you are doing it even if you just "lean". Bicycle is super light and it doesn't take much. When you lean you are putting pressure on the bars, even if you don't realize it. Above certain speed counter steering is the only way to turn a two wheel vehicle. It's not about whether you need it, but it's the only way.

A contious understanding and application of counter-steering is beneficial in emergency maneuvers and mountain biking. It is a skill that should be practiced regularly.

You mean like.... every time you turn above parking lot speeds? Good thinking.

Countersteering simply starts the bike falling in the direction you want it to go. E.g. steering slightly right leans the bike to the left for a left hand turn. When you recenter the bars, the left turn is completed. Countersteering makes it possible to turn more sharply and at higher speed than just using your weight to lean the bike in the direction you want it to go. If you try to turn the bike with the handlebars by direct steering, you will go the wrong way. Sheldon Brown makes it clear that this is the way essentially all two wheel (wheels in tandem) vehicles are turned. Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Glossary Cn - Cz

I think some of these videos make it more confusing, rather than less. Go ride a bike and cornering will come naturally. I never heard the term coutersteering until after I had been ripping through corners in races for years. I would probably have been slower if I tried to decide when to countersteer.

[h=2]Counter Steering - When to Use?[/h]
Whenever you want to change direction.

Seriously. The only time it's ever worth talking about counter steering is when one is first learning to ride. When starting out and going quite slow, the front wheel has to be pointed directly into the turn, often quite sharply. But to go any faster, one has to learn that that no longer works, and is in fact counter productive. Beyond that, it's no longer anything to think about.

Now can we talk about trail braking?

Even when leaning on the bike, without hands on the bars, the bike will counter steer on its own.

Works exactly the same on a bicycle. Around 2:40 is where it shows counter steer happening without hands - just leaning:

Lets talk about backin' it in instead! Safe during a crit?

The useful thing that comes out of understanding countersteering is understanding how to alter your line in a turn.

Push down more on the inside handlebar, the line tightens. Let pressure off the inside handlebar the line widens. Once you get this, it's easy to alter your line in a turn.

If you don't (at least on a subconscious level) you can lock into one line that you picked on the entry of the turn and find it difficult to alter your line mid turn, which can be a serious problem.

It seems to me that everyone just does this naturally. The only time I've ever thought about it was to experiment and confirm that countersteering occurs. I don't recall seeing anyone have a problem avoiding obstacles.

Flicking the bike around a pothole you didn't see.

Ride more, read/post less....

Maybe I'm one of the only people on here who never owned a motorcycle, but I've never noticed or practiced countersteering on a bicycle in the last 50 years or riding and racing. Given that it's easy (if harrowing) to carve corners with hands off the bars at speed on downhills simply by leaning the bike sufficiently, the descriptions of the subtleties of countersteering sound unconvincing. But then, like all Virgos, I don't believe in astrology, either.

Authorities say that one countersteers on essentially every turn. Not you?

that's because you corner well. It's not unusual for people who don't to run off the outside of corners because they didn't realize it was a descending radius turn and didn't know how to adjust once they entered the corner, or have difficulty with potholes, cars, bikes they didn't expect.

I've seen it a number of times, and a number of various stories on BF result from it.

I think riders fall in 3 basic groups in this regard 1) riders who are adept at altering their line in a curve, intuitively,

2) riders who are adept at altering their line in a curve because they understand the dynamics of countersteeering,

3) riders who have difficulty cornering at speed and altering their line mid turn.

Riders in category 1 don't need to worry about it. My suggestion is that riders in Category 3, can improve their handling by giving countersteering a little thought, and more importantly, playing with it, altering their line by altering pressure on the inside bar.

I gotta admit that I'm blown away by this general understanding of "countersteering" that's being discussed here! I mean, what's "counter" about it??

I grew up in a minibike/MTB/automotive world where countersteering mean turning against (i.e. counter) the direction of rotation in a slide. As in, if your rear wheel(s) slides towards the outside of a right hand turn initiating a clockwise rotation, you steer counter-clockwise. That's what I've always called countersteering.

Weighting the bar in the direction you want to turn is just how steer. At speeds and arcs where leaning the bike can describe the line you want, that's all you do. At low speeds and tight arcs, you throw in turning the bar. I've always found it simple like that.

I even had a motorcycle for a few years in the mid-'90s and rode with a group of older, experienced bikers who taught me how to run the back roads at speed and handle the throttle roll-off induced jacking of a Laverda v-twin when slowing for a turn, and I don't recall anyone ever calling pressing on the bar countersteering.

Clearly I'm in some kind of a minority here, but I'm curious as to what y'all call countersteering as I know it? Maybe I mixed up terms in my youth and just never got straightened out?

That is what is referred to as countersteering. You are 'turning' your handlebar right so the bike leans, and therefore turns, left.

^^^
When you turn the bars opposite to the direction you want to go. Not just weight them, but turn them. That makes the bike fall into the turn in the direction you want to turn. Sometime it is subtle, sometime severe. It just all depends on what you need. The pothole example is a good one. To go around a pothole on the left, you would flick the bars quickly to the right. That sends you over to the left. Countersteering.

Thing is, the pressure you have to put on a bicycle's handlebar to make this happen is so small it is almost imperceptible. On a 400lbs motorcycle going 150mph, it becomes much more noticeable. If you want to flick your sportsbike through a series of left-right corners at speed, you will have to give those bars a good push.

Right, on a bike it is almost not noticeable. It is just a minute flick. You definitely can't keep the bars turned counter for a long period. You will fall on the opposite side.