Bike Forums

Bike Forums (https://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Road Cycling (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/)
-   -   Wind jackets. Should I go with light water-resistent, or heavier waterproof jacket? (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/1038555-wind-jackets-should-i-go-light-water-resistent-heavier-waterproof-jacket.html)

JohnJ80 11-17-15 09:09 AM


Originally Posted by rm -rf (Post 18324194)
I have an extremely thin fabric Pearl Izumi jacket (P.R.O. fabric) that rolls up to fit in half a jersey pocket. It's very convenient to bring along, "just in case". But it's actually not breathable enough. I get sweat soaked very easily when I wear it. So now it's just brought as insurance, in case it rains or gets very cold by the end of the ride.



Huh. I never tried this. But it's exactly right for the thin roll-up jacket. I barely get any air through this one at all, and it's too sweaty.

Now, I have the (two year old model, it's been changed a little each year) Pearl Izumi Elite Convertible jacket. This is great for riding.

The breath test allows some air through, and I do stay quite dry when I wear it, even on longer rides. But the real reason is the big mesh panel on the back, under the removable shoulders that the sleeves are attached to. If I unzip the front partway, I get a huge airflow through and out the mesh. So I can vent on the climbs, then zip up to the neck on the downhills.

And the sleeves detach and stow in the back pocket when the day warms up.

With various combinations of base layers, this jacket is good from around 35F up to low 60F. If it's warmer than that, the sleeves go in one jersey pocket and the vest in another pocket. And I've been in a couple of heavy rains--it'll wet through, but I stayed warm with the base layers at 50F.


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 18324226)
I have that exact jacket too. Works just like you say. I quit using it though because the sleeves were a PITA to zip back on if I needed them again. Now I take the Voler and a Craft wind vest which also has a mesh back. Can always add the wind vest inside the jacket, too.


I too have that jacket. I like the light material, but I've come to really hate the sleeves. They truly are a PITA to deal with. I just use it as a vest.

J.

rm -rf 11-17-15 09:51 AM


Originally Posted by JohnJ80 (Post 18325078)
I too have that jacket. I like the light material, but I've come to really hate the sleeves. They truly are a PITA to deal with. I just use it as a vest.

J.

Yeah, I understand the comments about attaching the sleeves on the PI convertible jacket. There's two zippers and a half dozen velcro tabs.

I think I timed it at almost 2 minutes one time,pulling off gloves and stashing them temporarily, removing the jacket, laying it over the handlebars, attaching the center tab velcro, then lining up each sleeve zipper, then the bottom velcros. It doesn't take very long to remove the sleeves, though.

JohnJ80 11-17-15 09:55 AM


Originally Posted by rm -rf (Post 18325195)
Yeah, I get the comments about attaching the sleeves on the PI convertible jacket. There's two zippers and a half dozen velcro tabs.

I think I timed it at almost 2 minutes one time,pulling off gloves and stashing them temporarily, removing the jacket, laying it over the handlebars, attaching the center tab velcro, then lining up each sleeve zipper, then the bottom velcros. It doesn't take very long to remove the sleeves, though.


Yep. If I had to pick, I'd want the sleeves to go on faster than off. Since the jacket is lightly water resistant, getting the sleeves on generally has more urgency to it than taking them off.

I do love the material though. Be nice if they got rid of all the bulk associated with the convertible nature and just made the same as a straight up jacket.

J.

Long Tom 11-18-15 10:09 PM


Originally Posted by colnago62 (Post 18324435)
I ride all winter in the PNW. I have rode in 17. I have several weight jackets and tights built with Windstopper by Gore. The other key to riding in the cold is not riding so hard that you sweat profusely. I got that tip from one of those hard core winter riders sites. I feel like winter is for base miles. Not too worried about working hard when it is still early in the riding season.

I'm also in the PNW, and very much like my Gore Windstopper cycling jacket. Pit zips, and in fact the sleeves zip right off and now it's a vest.

I am am not living in the OP's body, and I do think what works for a given person can vary widely. For ME, if I'm doing very active activities in the winter elements (skiing, cycling, elk hunting) I want a good midweight base layer (eg: Patagonia Capilene), then long sleeve shirt of some type, in an apprpropriate fabric, and/or if it's REALLY cold, a thin dense fleece (such as expedition weight Capilene), and last but definitely not least a wind proof outer layer that I can vent.

Cycling, if I'm doing my main 30-mile climbing route, I often just go with mid weight base layer, long sleeve jersey, then the Windstopper jacket, even down into the low 30's. If I'm not damn cold starting my ride, I overdressed.

Kertrek 11-20-15 02:57 AM

How tight should wind jackets be? I bought a small lightweight Performance Bicycle brand jacket, and the sleeves flap around noisily when I ride.

banerjek 11-20-15 07:52 AM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 18324177)
A couple of winters ago, Stoker and I did a 78 mile ride at a steady 36 in a continuous heavy downpour in just this gear. Our only problem was cold hands but we have better gloves now. So far, I haven't seen waterproof/breathable gear that stuffs to the size of an orange. My Voler jacket weighs 5 oz.

Just for a reality check, I stuffed my Gore Oxygen AS GT jacket into my hands -- it's a decent sized orange or an undersized grapefruit. Either way, it easily fits in a jersey pocket without being too bulky even if it's a bit heavier than your Voler. This jacket is 3 years old so presumably better stuff is available.

I have tested even lighter fully waterproof breathable jackets, but one thing I would observe is that if you get too light, you start losing more heat through conductive transfer even if water is being shed.


Originally Posted by Kertrek (Post 18332625)
How tight should wind jackets be? I bought a small lightweight Performance Bicycle brand jacket, and the sleeves flap around noisily when I ride.

Fit is a critical part of how a jacket performs and you want things relatively form fitting. Keeping comfortable requires a microclimate between your jacket and your skin. The flapping interferes with the microclimate and has aerodynamic and annoyance disadvantages.

Fly2High 11-20-15 08:13 AM


Originally Posted by Kertrek (Post 18332625)
How tight should wind jackets be? I bought a small lightweight Performance Bicycle brand jacket, and the sleeves flap around noisily when I ride.

That would be too loose for me.

I own 2 Showers Pass waterproof jackets: The Elite Pro and Elite 2.1.

The Pro is very packable but doesn't breath as well as the 2.1. I had purchased the same size in each (Large - 6'!' 200 lbs - they run big) but exchanged the Pro for an XL due to the front vents puckering when opened. IT fit very much like a jersey in a Large. Now I regret exchanging for the XL. Lost a small amount of weight but more importantly, the XL is looser and flaps a tiny bit.

I can really feel the drag caused by a flapping jacket which is why I wish I kept the Large. The Elite 2.1 in Large works great and has nice large vent and a fully vented upper back with a storm flap.

Being breathable, I really do nt look to them for much warmth. I have a Sugoi Zap jacket that doesn't breath at all and that keeps me warmer and being highly reflective with all those micro dots helps to.

bakes1 11-20-15 09:26 AM


Originally Posted by banerjek (Post 18323474)
It sounds like you overdress.

With regards to swamping out your high end jacket, that can be accomplished at any temperature -- if you sweat faster than the atmosphere can absorb it, you will get wet. This can be done below freezing with bare skin protected by nothing.

The trick when you begin sweating is to change layering, ventilation, what you're doing, etc so that you stay dry. Under 40F raining is no big deal at all -- 33F in the wet is quite comfortable. If you overdress though, you'll get wet on the inside and then hypothermic through conductive transfer of heat.

Nonintuitively, keeping warm often means wearing less. But most people don't trust this idea so they overdress (and freeze). I see this in other sports I do as well.

I'm not a fan of fleece for cycling or for any high output activity. Too bulky and easy to get wet. It's great for low impact situations where a lot of insulation is handy and weight/bulk is not an issue.

No kidding.
How did cyclists survive back in the day?
Disaster and hypothermia from wearing waterproof jackets?
Somebody's marketing department is doing an amazing job lol.
Score another one for the gods of wicking!

JohnJ80 11-20-15 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by Kertrek (Post 18332625)
How tight should wind jackets be? I bought a small lightweight Performance Bicycle brand jacket, and the sleeves flap around noisily when I ride.

Any jacket will flap if the windspeed is fast enough. My Shower's Pass Century jacket will start to to flap in the sleeves when the windspeed is around 25-30mph. That seems pretty good to me and is probably a decent tradeoff. That said, the sleeves on jackets never seem to be right.

J.

banerjek 11-20-15 09:40 AM


Originally Posted by bakes1 (Post 18333190)
No kidding.
How did cyclists survive back in the day?
Disaster and hypothermia from wearing waterproof jackets?
Somebody's marketing department is doing an amazing job lol.
Score another one for the gods of wicking!

The trick back then was to know how to stay warm and wet. I have been a Gore Tex product tester for about 8 years and one thing that annoyed them was that I wouldn't recommend any of their products (or any competitors waterproof breathable offerings) for cycling when I first started. It was all so heavy that you either got wet from the outside or the inside. I felt that wool or neoprene were much better options as you can be soaking wet in 33 rain and be just fine.

However, the new products are much better than they used to be and are better than some of these tried and true solutions for most situations. They're way lighter, breathe way better, are more comfortable, and can be used at virtually any temperature. I have only one cycling jacket and have been fine in single digits Fahrenheit.

While wool and neoprene still work great, they are heavy, bulky, and ultimately less versatile. Don't get me wrong -- wool is awesome. I prefer it to technical fabrics for many purposes and use it for cycling, kayaking, and skiing. However, paired with a waterproof breathable jacket, you don't need as much of it and you stay dry to boot. Neoprene is only comfortable when it's quite cold.

So yes, marketing has been successful and a lot of people might go higher tech than they need, but the performance is real. It makes a huge difference for my mountaineering and sea kayaking activities, and I also like it quite a bit for cycling as well.

Carbonfiberboy 11-20-15 12:41 PM


Originally Posted by banerjek (Post 18332933)
Just for a reality check, I stuffed my Gore Oxygen AS GT jacket into my hands -- it's a decent sized orange or an undersized grapefruit. Either way, it easily fits in a jersey pocket without being too bulky even if it's a bit heavier than your Voler. This jacket is 3 years old so presumably better stuff is available.
<snip>

But do you sweat in it when going hard? That's been my experience with "breathable" gear. I overheat almost immediately. Can't get rid of the heat unless as I said earlier, I severely underdress beneath it. Even then. Like riding a trainer in a closet with no ventilation. The Voler is also $55 as opposed to $250.

Seattle Forrest 11-20-15 12:44 PM

Arc'teryx Accelero wind breaker. Merino wool base layer. Mid layer depending on the conditions.

http://content.backcountry.com/image...3480/BORBL.jpg

banerjek 11-20-15 05:16 PM


Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy (Post 18333765)
But do you sweat in it when going hard? That's been my experience with "breathable" gear. I overheat almost immediately. Can't get rid of the heat unless as I said earlier, I severely underdress beneath it. Even then. Like riding a trainer in a closet with no ventilation. The Voler is also $55 as opposed to $250.

For a decent effort, I don't typically wear a jacket until the temp is around 40 -- you need that airflow to keep dry. That applies to windbreakers which I also have.

Waterproof/breathable is unnecessary unless you actually ride in the wet. Note that to stay dry in the wet in harder efforts, temps have to be relatively low. By definition, relative humidity is 100% when it's raining -- meaning that water won't evaporate. The only way to get it to do that is if there's a significant temperature differential (i.e. the warm air near your skin holds less moisture than the cold air outside so it can still get through)

As a practical matter, this means that for hard efforts, it needs to be cold even if it's raining to stay comfortable and when it's dry, you'll have to open things up a bit. But if it's dry, who cares.

Waterproof/breathable is more windproof than a windbreaker so it's especially good on high speed descents in the cold and in situations where you get wet and have cold wind blowing off you -- less heat loss through evaporation and conductive transfer. Waterproof breathable is also great when you're going easy in cool conditions.

gregf83 11-20-15 05:48 PM


Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest (Post 18333781)
Arc'teryx Accelero wind breaker. Merino wool base layer. Mid layer depending on the conditions.

http://content.backcountry.com/image...3480/BORBL.jpg

That looks quite good. I was expecting it to be $400. How does it do in the rain? Does it keep most of the water out for an hour or so?

kbarch 11-20-15 05:51 PM


Originally Posted by banerjek (Post 18334546)
For a decent effort, I don't typically wear a jacket until the temp is around 40 -- you need that airflow to keep dry. That applies to windbreakers which I also have.

You guys need to stop saying "you" all the time.
YOU may need airflow at 40 degrees to stay dry, but I don't need airflow (except at stops and hard climbs) except above 60-65. It takes a LOT of work for me to work up a sweat at room temperature, and I'm usually the last one to start sweating in hot, humid weather.

C9H13N 11-24-15 05:47 PM

I have a Gore Windstopper jacket (fusion cosmo). It fits wonderfully but it's really too warm for Seattle winters. Wore it today in 40F weather with just a summer weight jersey underneath, was too hot after 1hr or so. With a wool longsleeve and a wicking t-shirt under it's probably good to below 20F.

colnago62 11-24-15 06:05 PM


Originally Posted by C9H13N (Post 18343733)
I have a Gore Windstopper jacket (fusion cosmo). It fits wonderfully but it's really too warm for Seattle winters. Wore it today in 40F weather with just a summer weight jersey underneath, was too hot after 1hr or so. With a wool longsleeve and a wicking t-shirt under it's probably good to below 20F.

If you get a chance, check out the Gabba jersey or the Transperante Due jersey Castelli. It is made of Windstopper, but without any insulation.

Drew Eckhardt 11-24-15 07:17 PM


Originally Posted by Kertrek (Post 18332625)
How tight should wind jackets be? I bought a small lightweight Performance Bicycle brand jacket, and the sleeves flap around noisily when I ride.

As tight as your jerseys.

I have racer-fit Louis Garneau Superlight Speedzone jacket which is pleasant past 20 MPH.

PaulRivers 11-24-15 09:01 PM


Originally Posted by banerjek (Post 18334546)
Waterproof/breathable is unnecessary unless you actually ride in the wet. Waterproof/breathable is more windproof than a windbreaker so it's especially good on high speed descents in the cold and in situations where you get wet and have cold wind blowing off you -- less heat loss through evaporation and conductive transfer. Waterproof breathable is also great when you're going easy in cool conditions.

The thing is that if you're biking in winter snow cold temps (below freezing), you usually want a real windproof jacket. And those windproof jackets tend to be made out of the same base material as the waterproof breathable version - so why not just get the waterproof breathable version? Like Goretex Active and Goretex Windstopper cost around the same, are made out of basically the same base material, the only difference seems to be no seam sealing in the windproof version. But why not just get more versatile waterproof version then?

If you know of something that makes me wrong, I would love to hear about it. But I've been trying to find something, and no dice. If you need something for the 33-50 degree range, you can find wind resistant stuff that's more breathable and works great. But below freezing, the windproof and waterproof/breathable stuff seems to be made out of the same material, so might as well go full waterproof and get the same breathability in a more versatile jacket.

banerjek 11-25-15 12:21 PM


Originally Posted by PaulRivers (Post 18344086)
The thing is that if you're biking in winter snow cold temps (below freezing), you usually want a real windproof jacket. And those windproof jackets tend to be made out of the same base material as the waterproof breathable version - so why not just get the waterproof breathable version? Like Goretex Active and Goretex Windstopper cost around the same, are made out of basically the same base material, the only difference seems to be no seam sealing in the windproof version. But why not just get more versatile waterproof version then?

If you know of something that makes me wrong, I would love to hear about it. But I've been trying to find something, and no dice. If you need something for the 33-50 degree range, you can find wind resistant stuff that's more breathable and works great. But below freezing, the windproof and waterproof/breathable stuff seems to be made out of the same material, so might as well go full waterproof and get the same breathability in a more versatile jacket.

I prefer the setup you suggest for the same reasons you give -- Gore-Tex Active is my go to daily jacket that I use for everything as I find it's appropriate in any conditions where you'd want a jacket. However, I would observe that the material is different than Windstopper -- it is lighter, more packable, more versatile, and IMO superior in every way for what I do except in abrasion resistance, overall durability, and as an insulating layer. I'm not a fan of Windstopper and don't like the jackets for any purpose more strenuous than dog walking and I only like the tights for cool temps (upper 20's to upper 30's) in the dry as I find they restrict movement too much and are comfortable in only a narrow temperature range.

You may take my words with a grain of salt as I'm a Gore-Tex product tester and I receive consideration for sharing my thoughts (for those of you who get sick of hearing me say that, I'm required by law to disclose my relationship to comply with FCC regulations regarding communications in social media). But I wouldn't use or test their stuff if I didn't like it -- they don't make me evaluate things that don't doesn't mesh with my interests. I spend way too much time outside to use crap I don't like as the right gear makes a big difference in enjoyment of the sport.

Seattle Forrest 11-25-15 12:33 PM


Originally Posted by gregf83 (Post 18334608)
That looks quite good. I was expecting it to be $400. How does it do in the rain? Does it keep most of the water out for an hour or so?

I've had mine for about 5 years, it looks like brand new except for a spot my cat got a claw into.

It's water resistant, but not -proof. Which means it's very breathable. Comes with a healthy dose of DWR and I've applied more every year or so. Rain beads up and rolls or shakes off. It'll keep me dry in a good Seattle rain for about an hour, longer if I shake off seconds when I come to a light. All the beaded up drops just come right off. Otherwise they'll eventually soak through, but it takes a long time.

I also wear mine XC skiing and hiking. Wear it often under a heavy-ish pack, straps aren't wearing into the shoulders (yet).

I misplaced mine a few years ago, loved it so much I bought another when I couldn't find it. Kept the second one when it turned up. I've got softshells, Goretex, down, and fleece too, but this is my favorite by far.

banerjek 11-25-15 12:51 PM


Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest (Post 18345474)
It's water resistant, but not -proof. Which means it's very breathable. Comes with a healthy dose of DWR and I've applied more every year or so. Rain beads up and rolls or shakes off. It'll keep me dry in a good Seattle rain for about an hour, longer if I shake off seconds when I come to a light. All the beaded up drops just come right off. Otherwise they'll eventually soak through, but it takes a long time.

Could you say a bit about what kind of DWR you apply and how you do it? I use Nikwax as per instructions but the durability I get out of it is absolute garbage -- maybe a couple serious uses before I'm experiencing wet out. Nothing I've been able to do is 1/10th as good as a factory application.

Seattle Forrest 11-25-15 01:02 PM

I use Grangers DWR, because that's the one the dead bird recommends. The spray on kind. They sell a 2 pack with a DWR and a detergent, in two different bottles. It's been since last winter but I think the procedure is wash the jacket, run it through the dryer, spray it down real good, then into the dryer again on warm or hot.

Never use the wash in kind, you only want to coat the outside of your clothes.

I think the surface of the jacket (or whatever it is you're applying the stuff to) has a lot to do with it. I tried to DWR some pants that weren't meant for the stuff, no result. Most jackets and the rain pants I have, home DWR isn't as good as the factory coat. My Accelero takes it really well, though, a home treatment works just as well as a new jacket from the store.

dim 11-25-15 01:08 PM

depends how far you cycle ...

I do short runs (5-10km) and will be buying a yellow hi viz construction workers jacket .... (buying it tommorow) ... fully lined, waterproof, very warm and hi visibility for approx 20

I already have a scarf, and warm gloves

PaulRivers 11-30-15 03:14 PM


Originally Posted by banerjek (Post 18345430)
I prefer the setup you suggest for the same reasons you give -- Gore-Tex Active is my go to daily jacket that I use for everything as I find it's appropriate in any conditions where you'd want a jacket. However, I would observe that the material is different than Windstopper -- it is lighter, more packable, more versatile, and IMO superior in every way for what I do except in abrasion resistance, overall durability, and as an insulating layer. I'm not a fan of Windstopper and don't like the jackets for any purpose more strenuous than dog walking and

As I understand it there are now 4 basic materials from gore for bike gear:
1. Goretex "Active". Basically Goretex needed something to compete with eVent fabric and this is similar. Most breathable, least durable for abrasions and wear.
2. Goretex "Pro". Less breathable but more durable for activities like hiking where there's something wearing against the jacket
3. Windstopper "Active". Same as #1 but not seam sealed so not waterproof.
4. Windstopper "Soft Shell". I'm not sure on it's breathability - things I read were either that it was the same as the older Goretex (less breathable) just not seam sealed, or that it was basically the same as eVent fabric (and modern "active" goretex) but not waterproof. It's advantage was that it could also be made to be stretchy.


Originally Posted by banerjek (Post 18345430)
I only like the tights for cool temps (upper 20's to upper 30's) in the dry as I find they restrict movement too much and are comfortable in only a narrow temperature range.

I'm surprised to hear that, I thought the advantage of windstopper "softshell" was that it's stretchy. I know the Gore Phantom (soft shell windstopper) jacket I tried on in the store was very stretchy.


Originally Posted by banerjek (Post 18345430)
You may take my words with a grain of salt as I'm a Gore-Tex product tester and I receive consideration for sharing my thoughts (for those of you who get sick of hearing me say that, I'm required by law to disclose my relationship to comply with FCC regulations regarding communications in social media). But I wouldn't use or test their stuff if I didn't like it -- they don't make me evaluate things that don't doesn't mesh with my interests. I spend way too much time outside to use crap I don't like as the right gear makes a big difference in enjoyment of the sport.

I'm curious what you'd suggest for a biking jacket. I own a nice Shower's Pass jacket, but the issue is with fit - their "Large" doesn't come down to completely cover the front of my waist, their extra large (what I have) does, but it's far to loose fitting on me and I think it's causing some discomfort while riding that would take to long to write out here.

I know the Goretex Phantom jacket fits me really well. But it's "comfort fit" - I couldn't find any Goretex Active jackets that come in anything other than slim sizing. Also was a little concerned that Goretex jackets don't seem to have features like an open back to let moisture in and out (like my showers pass has) or pit or side zips to regulate temp in the jacket. Still curious though. Money is not a big issue for me, finding a comfortable jacket that fits for winter riding is my bigger problem.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:25 AM.


Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.