Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

November Bicycles, what's the story?

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

November Bicycles, what's the story?

Old 12-08-15, 01:09 PM
  #51  
UnfilteredDregs
Senior Member
 
UnfilteredDregs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC, duh Bronx.
Posts: 3,578

Bikes: Salsa Ti Warbird- 2014/ November RAIL52s

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Again, I'd like to see how Parlee presented its case to the FTC (or how they would). It could change my opinion on the subject if the FTC clearly ruled that taking carbon fiber and making it into a bike frame constituted a substantial transformation and that the carbon fiber origin is insignificant enough to not matter to the final product (paraphrased from my post about Rivendell).
Actually...I'm not sure where Parlee sources their fiber...Will find out!
UnfilteredDregs is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 01:12 PM
  #52  
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 11,852

Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu FM-079-F, 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2016 Islabikes Beinn 20 (son's)

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
Nevertheless, November is in compliance with the law.
That they make the claim doesn't necessarily mean they are in compliance with the law FWIW. I can claim anything I want on the internet. Doesn't mean I'm not full of ****, no matter how frequently I do it.
joejack951 is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 01:14 PM
  #53  
UnfilteredDregs
Senior Member
 
UnfilteredDregs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC, duh Bronx.
Posts: 3,578

Bikes: Salsa Ti Warbird- 2014/ November RAIL52s

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
We should circle this thread back...

OP, November makes an excellent product, they stand behind it, they're straight up and transparent regarding the how & why of their business, and it's apparent to me and everyone I know who owns their wheels, that they're a quality manufacturer.
UnfilteredDregs is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 01:15 PM
  #54  
UnfilteredDregs
Senior Member
 
UnfilteredDregs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC, duh Bronx.
Posts: 3,578

Bikes: Salsa Ti Warbird- 2014/ November RAIL52s

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
That they make the claim doesn't necessarily mean they are in compliance with the law FWIW. I can claim anything I want on the internet. Doesn't mean I'm not full of ****, no matter how frequently I do it.
You're edging real close to libel here.
UnfilteredDregs is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 02:14 PM
  #55  
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 11,852

Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu FM-079-F, 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2016 Islabikes Beinn 20 (son's)

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
You're edging real close to libel here.
I wasn't implying, or didn't mean to imply, they were claiming anything they want. It was a bad joke about my myself. My statement about compliance with the law is what it is.
joejack951 is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 02:31 PM
  #56  
Pliggy
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 36

Bikes: 2011 Cervelo R3 & 07 Specialized Allez Comp & 01 Specialized Rockhopper, Framed Minnesota 2.0 Fatty

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have a set of the Rail 52s and can say they are an absolute awesome set of wheels. I've had them for well over a year and I couldn't be happier. Single best purchase I've made for my bike and my riding. After doing my research, reading their many blog posts, emailing back and forth with Dave (very responsive), it was easy to make the decision to purchase the Rails.

I would have no reason to think differently on their frameset as they put their heart in soul in the products they make and stand behind them. Very big supporter of local businesses - and Dave & Mike make you feel that way even if they are nowhere near local (and they aren't for me).
Pliggy is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 02:50 PM
  #57  
UnfilteredDregs
Senior Member
 
UnfilteredDregs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC, duh Bronx.
Posts: 3,578

Bikes: Salsa Ti Warbird- 2014/ November RAIL52s

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
I wasn't implying, or didn't mean to imply, they were claiming anything they want. It was a bad joke about my myself. My statement about compliance with the law is what it is.
Ha! Damn interwebz.
UnfilteredDregs is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 04:57 PM
  #58  
StanSeven
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware shore
Posts: 13,085

Bikes: Cervelo C5, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
I wasn't implying, or didn't mean to imply, they were claiming anything they want. It was a bad joke about my myself. My statement about compliance with the law is what it is.
You're arguing something ridiculous and citing FTC rules. FTC gets involved for false claims and only when there's a complaint raised. Who cares whether it's made in Italty, Japan, or wherever?

What really impacts companies are compliance with treaties and international trade agreements. The issue of materials and labor costs, country of origin, and substantial transformation affects import duties. If an importer shows Italy as the point of origin and that meets international trade rules and thus custom duties, they would be foolish to advertise something else.
StanSeven is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 05:51 PM
  #59  
Andy STi
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Bend, OR
Posts: 557
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
OMG, this thread has turned!

November wheels and their WI hubs are awesome. I have a set of Rail 52 and I love them. Very happy with their performance. I would buy the Nimbus wheels with Pacenti rims in a heart beat if I didn't already have a set of Pacenti wheels. I think it's obvious that the November Timoneria is made by Sarto. As stated, Dave wont agree or disagree and I think that's fine.

With regards to where things are made are some of you saying that all the US frame builders who build with Reynolds or Columbus tubing are not building made in US frames? Richard Sachs, Vanilla, Breadwinner, Kirk, and Strong - to name a few. Whatever...
Andy STi is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 06:05 PM
  #60  
sour
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 63
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
My wife and I each have a set of rails she has close to 4000 miles on hers and I have about 2500 on mine. We are very pleased with the product received. November provided excellent pre and post sale support. They easily met the commitments they made and never needed to make excuses. My only complaint was that they discontinued their red skewers. They will be the first people I call when I decide to buy another set of wheels.

I did think about their new frame and really like it, but ended up with something else.
sour is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 08:18 PM
  #61  
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 11,852

Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu FM-079-F, 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2016 Islabikes Beinn 20 (son's)

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
You're arguing something ridiculous and citing FTC rules. FTC gets involved for false claims and only when there's a complaint raised. Who cares whether it's made in Italty, Japan, or wherever?
Who cares? A lot of people. Certainly the person who is paying nearly $4000 for something that, to the casual observer at least, resembles something they could buy direct from China for $500. The companies who make the frames care, too. It is a selling point, it instills buyer confidence, and/or invokes pride when something is made either in the country one lives in or has some other attachment to.

If some company came along claiming 'Made in Italy' when really they were using foreign sourced carbon fiber tubes, you bet your ass November would be filing a complaint. If another company came along and decided to make everything down to the actual carbon fiber in Italy don't you think it is a bit unfair that both they and November are both claiming 'Made in Italy'?

The ridiculous rules exist for a reason, and as usual it all comes down to money, and people really, really care about money. Not so much where it was made, though 😃

Originally Posted by StanSeven View Post
What really impacts companies are compliance with treaties and international trade agreements. The issue of materials and labor costs, country of origin, and substantial transformation affects import duties. If an importer shows Italy as the point of origin and that meets international trade rules and thus custom duties, they would be foolish to advertise something else.
Yes, money impact companies and they care a lot about it. Most/all products will command a premium price for being made in a high-labor-cost country and there are tax benefits as well. If one company is using more foreign content in a product than another they are very likely seeing a cost savings from doing so. Making the same 'Made in XXX' as another company means they are receiving the same tax benefits, too, and attracting buyers from the same customer base.

That's why the qualifiers are so important and why companies often go great lengths to point out how much local content, assembly work, or even designing went into a product. Unqualified statements really stand out which is why I (and the FTC) believe they should be held to a very high standard. Whether or not November (or Rivendell or Parlee) meets that standard is anyone's guess until it has been challenged and confirmed.
joejack951 is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 08:23 PM
  #62  
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 11,852

Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu FM-079-F, 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2016 Islabikes Beinn 20 (son's)

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Andy STi View Post
With regards to where things are made are some of you saying that all the US frame builders who build with Reynolds or Columbus tubing are not building made in US frames? Richard Sachs, Vanilla, Breadwinner, Kirk, and Strong - to name a few. Whatever...
You'll say 'whatever' until is your money. If one 'Made in USA' frame used all US steel tubing and US cast/machined lugs versus another at the same price using foreign sourced tubing and lugs, which would you choose, all else equal?
joejack951 is offline  
Old 12-08-15, 10:59 PM
  #63  
robbyville
Senior Member
 
robbyville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Palm Desert, CA
Posts: 2,036

Bikes: Speedvagen Steel

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
I'm on my second set of November wheels, having sold my first pre-rail set due to lusting after the Rail 52's when they came out. I should mention that the first set held their value incredibly well greatly due to the reputation that Dave and Mike have built in the marketplace.

I'm constantly amazed how well the 52's handle in cross winds. I'm fortunate enough to have met Dave once when he came out to ride at my (then) place of work. I really appreciate how they run their business, re-invest in new products and concepts, with an air of transparency and excellent customer service. I had numerous contact with them throughout both purchases and beyond when I was looking first at the Wheelhouse frameset and then later to other builds. Great guys, and my next set of wheels will be with them again.
robbyville is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 12:35 AM
  #64  
Yoohoo
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: So Cal
Posts: 18

Bikes: 2014 trek Madone 5.2, 2003 Gary Fisher Hoo Koo e Koo, Specialized S Works Tarmac 2015 limited Alberto Contador

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
November's description of their Timoneria (wheel house?) is seductive, let me know if you have actually taken one for a spin? I'm looking to start with a set of 52's and see where they take me.
Yoohoo is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 06:59 AM
  #65  
RJM
I'm doing it wrong.
 
RJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,854

Bikes: Trek Remedy 9.8, Rivendell Appaloosa, Kona Jake the Snake CR, Trek Fuel Ex, Riv Atlantis, Niner Sir9, Trek Crockett

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6145 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
You'll say 'whatever' until is your money. If one 'Made in USA' frame used all US steel tubing and US cast/machined lugs versus another at the same price using foreign sourced tubing and lugs, which would you choose, all else equal?
Don't sweat the small stuff, man. You're never going to find a bicycle that is 100% USA made with the line you have drawn in the sand...and none of this has to do with November's "made in Italy" bike.
RJM is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 07:56 AM
  #66  
UnfilteredDregs
Senior Member
 
UnfilteredDregs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC, duh Bronx.
Posts: 3,578

Bikes: Salsa Ti Warbird- 2014/ November RAIL52s

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by robbyville View Post

I'm constantly amazed how well the 52's handle in cross winds.
This. I rode a late Fall century up in Vermont, 32 degrees average all day, gusts upwards of 30mph when I checked later on. At one point I was on Route 15 heading towards Jeffersonville where I was going to turn South on Pleasant Valley Rd and I was getting broadsided by big-assed gusts all the while doing upwards of 40mph on a particular downhill stretch, very confident handling wheels, no shuddering, etc.. at one point a big 18 wheeled aggregate truck passed me at about 60mph and even though there was a vacuum pulling at me the shift was very controllable.
UnfilteredDregs is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 08:11 AM
  #67  
UnfilteredDregs
Senior Member
 
UnfilteredDregs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC, duh Bronx.
Posts: 3,578

Bikes: Salsa Ti Warbird- 2014/ November RAIL52s

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 67 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
which would you choose, all else equal?
Anyone with any sense would choose the better builder.
UnfilteredDregs is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 08:55 AM
  #68  
dbf73
TFO
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 254
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
OP, November makes an excellent product, they stand behind it, they're straight up and transparent regarding the how & why of their business, and it's apparent to me and everyone I know who owns their wheels, that they're a quality manufacturer.
this^^^^
dbf73 is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 09:17 AM
  #69  
StanSeven
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Delaware shore
Posts: 13,085

Bikes: Cervelo C5, Guru Photon, Waterford, Specialized CX

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 32 Times in 29 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
You'll say 'whatever' until is your money. If one 'Made in USA' frame used all US steel tubing and US cast/machined lugs versus another at the same price using foreign sourced tubing and lugs, which would you choose, all else equal?
Haha. They both would say "Made in USA" because domestic labor to fabricate the frame would be significantly more than the material cost. Who would know where the tubes comes from?
StanSeven is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 09:55 AM
  #70  
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 11,852

Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu FM-079-F, 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2016 Islabikes Beinn 20 (son's)

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by RJM View Post
Don't sweat the small stuff, man. You're never going to find a bicycle that is 100% USA made with the line you have drawn in the sand...and none of this has to do with November's "made in Italy" bike.
To be honest, I don't sweat it all. But many consumers do. And I do think that businesses should conduct themselves in a fair manner, being upfront about the domestic and foreign content in their product. And in this case, November has been very upfront in this thread about the content of their frames and I applaud them for that. I wonder how transparent a company like Trek, Parlee, or Rivendell would be on the same topic.
joejack951 is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 09:57 AM
  #71  
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 11,852

Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu FM-079-F, 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2016 Islabikes Beinn 20 (son's)

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
Anyone with any sense would choose the better builder.
Same builder, same craftsmen, same cost, same everything (all else equal as I originally stated) except you have the choice between otherwise identical US-made tubing and lugs versus foreign (let's just say from China to make it fun) sourced components.
joejack951 is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 09:58 AM
  #72  
dr_lha
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Central PA
Posts: 4,813

Bikes: 2016 Black Mountain Cycles Monster Cross v5, 2015 Ritchey Road Logic, 1998 Specialized Rockhopper, 2017 Raleigh Grand Prix

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
I wonder how transparent a company like Trek, Parlee, or Rivendell would be on the same topic.
I was actually under the impression that Rivendell frames were made in Taiwan.

EDIT: I guess some are, and some are made in the USA. Their website does actually say where each frame is made.
dr_lha is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 10:00 AM
  #73  
joejack951
Senior Member
 
joejack951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 11,852

Bikes: 2016 Hong Fu FM-079-F, 1984 Trek 660, 2003 Specialized Hardrock, 2004 LOOK KG386i (RIP), 2005 Iron Horse Warrior Expert, 2009 Pedal Force CX1, 2016 Islabikes Beinn 20 (son's)

Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1120 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
I was actually under the impression that Rivendell frames were made in Taiwan.
Hunqapillar

"Made in: Wisconsin, USA"

Also (for those who seem to think the steel isn't a big part of the cost of a frame): "Like all of our bikes, the Hunqapillar is hand-made of fine, lugged steel, and uses our own quite expensive and fine investment-cast fittings."

No clue where those investment-cast fittings are made but from my own experience with the process, I'm guessing NOT in the US. Investment cast parts are expensive enough out of China or Taiwan.

Last edited by joejack951; 12-09-15 at 10:04 AM.
joejack951 is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 10:01 AM
  #74  
dr_lha
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Central PA
Posts: 4,813

Bikes: 2016 Black Mountain Cycles Monster Cross v5, 2015 Ritchey Road Logic, 1998 Specialized Rockhopper, 2017 Raleigh Grand Prix

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 355 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
Hunqapillar

"Made in: Wisconsin, USA"
Sam Hillborne

Made in Taiwan.

Seems that some of their frames are made by Waterford, some are made in Taiwan (probably by Maxway).
dr_lha is offline  
Old 12-09-15, 10:05 AM
  #75  
RJM
I'm doing it wrong.
 
RJM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,854

Bikes: Trek Remedy 9.8, Rivendell Appaloosa, Kona Jake the Snake CR, Trek Fuel Ex, Riv Atlantis, Niner Sir9, Trek Crockett

Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6145 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
I was actually under the impression that Rivendell frames were made in Taiwan.

EDIT: I guess some are, and some are made in the USA. Their website does actually say where each frame is made.
Yeah, most of the more expensive models are made by Waterford in Wisconsin.

The Hunqapillar used to be a Tawain made frame using a mixture of tubing and now it is made in Waterford probably using the same mixture. Some of the tubes were made in Japan...I got that from the early writings on the development of the frame that came out in the Riv Reader or maybe on the website...I just can't remember.
RJM is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.