noodle soup

Lets just say they were sourced from fantasyland. If it is all made in the USA, it's going to cost more.

joejack951

Yeah, I was just pointing out that some do claim to be made in the US.

RJM

They are made outside of the US. BLUG ? Long Shen Trip

dr_lha

Yep, fair enough. I guess when I was shopping for frames, the only Rivendell ones I looked at were the sub $2000 ones!

joejack951

Gunnar frames are real bargains considering the amount of US-sourced content and labor. If want lugged you need to look elsewhere, though.

RJM

If you pay attention to Riv's website, blug, and the articles that Grant writes, they are very upfront.

I am going to reiterate though that I think your interpretation of the FTC and that webpage is being incorrectly applied to bicycles and frames. Bikes are not analogous with a gold ring.

dr_lha

It's OK, I'm happy with my Taiwan built steel frame for now.

joejack951

And shouldn't that company be able to have an advantage over another company that only uses US labor to build their frames? If both can claim 'Made in USA' where is the incentive to use more US content?

noodle soup

I don't think being "Made in the USA" is necessarily an advantage, and most bikes that are made in the US are not a good value.

Fox Farm

This thread is rivaling some records for being so off topic for the OP question...

joejack951

Read some of the early responses to the OP. Made in anywhere-but-China/Taiwan carries at least some value to some people. 'Good value' is totally up to the consumer. '100% handmade in Italy' is something November is pushing and surely that helps them justify their asking price for a mail-order only frame. Pedal Force frames (made in Taiwan and also mail order only) can be had for a whole lot less and have been around a lot longer. Their QS4 frameset is $750. That's roughly a $2500 difference. Or three more Pedal Force framesets with money leftover.

RJM

I don't think November is competing with Pedal Force frames....the buyer looking at a November isn't going to be looking at Pedal Force for a substitute. More likely, they will be looking at a high end 7 series Trek, Specialized S-Works or something similar...and their pricing reflects that.

November Dave

"100% made in Italy" in context of my post on this thread is meant as "it is 100% truth that it is made in Italy, without equivocation," as opposed to "100% of everything that goes into it is made in Italy."

I am 100% satisfied (speaking not as a "November rep" but as the co-founder and co-owner of the company, in addition to being the person who product managed the frames from our end, as well as picking the color palette and sketching the original graphic design) that there is no obfuscation, misrepresentation, or other shadiness in calling the Timoneria a "made in Italy" product.

Your earlier assertion that November would flip out if someone said something was made in Italy with less actual Italian input than our frames have is incorrect. We'd do nothing. We've witnessed outright lies many multiples worse than that, and we basically say nothing about it. This post is the harshest response we've ever had to the misrepresentations we see coming out of the bike industry. Please don't characterize how my company would respond to something when you have absolutely no knowledge nor available evidence of such.

We're not trying to justify any kind of price. The frames cost what they cost to produce, and we're selling them for a rather crappy margin to us. Pedal Force probably makes a better margin on their $750 frame. The people who've bought them are, to a person, absolutely thrilled with them. I love mine, and it's a very rare ride when I'm not stopped by someone to tell me what a pretty bike I have. Equivalent bikes, built by the same people with the same materials, are sold elsewhere for much much more. We're not exactly pushing these bikes. If the right customer is in the market for such a thing and we're the right solution, great. If not, great. If a $12,000 frame from someone else is the right fit, great. If a $750 frame from someone else is right for you, great. Frames are a minuscule part of our business, but if we sold these frames for $750, we'd lose a couple of thousand bucks on them so don't look for that to happen anytime soon.

Going purely by the dominance of Toray and Mitsubishi in supply of carbon to the bike market, maybe we should just say any bike thing made of carbon is made in Japan? I appreciate the point you're trying to make, but the decades of design experience, dozens of very skilled man hours, and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of capital equipment and infrastructure used to turn approximately $50 worth of raw carbon fiber into a Timoneria are more important than the $50 of raw carbon fiber (an overestimate if anything) from Japan.

noodle soup

I don't think a November frameset buyer would be interested in a Pedal Force or anything similar to something from the big 4. I would think a November buyer is looking for a top quality/high end frameset, but not something that you would see at every local shop.

Of course I could be wrong, just my $.02

hueyhoolihan

my heart goes out to sales people, marketing reps, owners, and designers of bikes, bikes and just about any other item for that matter, that try to defend their products on an internet forum. usually because there always seems to be some guy out there that won't stop haranguing them until they get in the last word.

IME, it never ends well. the antagonist comes off as hostile, and the protagonist, defensive, no matter how conciliatory they appear to be.

dksix

I've never heard of this company until today but I'd be far more likely to believe November Dave on what's what in his company than some US government agency.

IMHO, just the company having someone that would actually take the time to chime in on a bicycle forum thread gives me more confidence in them than I've ever gotten from Cannondale Tom, Trek Dick or Specialized Harry.

I can't see me ever spending $3500 on a frame set but if I was, November Bikes just jumped into the top 2 of companies I'd consider.

RJM

. That's probably true. It certainly isn't a common frame, but I don't doubt it being high end and quality. The color scheme is top notch.

Shuffleman

All I know is that I had never heard of their brand before this thread. I must say that they appear to make a beautiful bike. I say go for it.

UnfilteredDregs

...and if Antonio Sarto is the one crafting the frames it's a steal at the price November is selling it for.

dr_lha

I just don't understand how anyone who is even remotely interested in bikes or understands them can possibly make the argument that frame X is cheaper than frame Y, therefore frame Y is a rip-off.

I mean, I could have bought 20 steel frame Wal-mart fixies for the price of my steel frame road bike, does that make my bike an rip-off? Should I also mention that I bought the frame "mail order" as well! Amazing, what a rip-off!

BTW November Dave, thanks for your reasoned posts in here, I know that dealing with internet forums is probably not the favorite thing for people in the bike industry to do.

joejack951

Yes, I gathered that from the blog link posted. Good for them.

I agree, the situations aren't exactly the same. But there are some similarities. Unfortunately, the FTC's examples don't get into any of the grey areas (likely on purpose) which is where bikes built in one country using raw materials from another fall.

joejack951

I never (intended) to imply they were competitors. Both do build carbon fiber bike frames and sell through mail order only. Both appear to build nice frames (disclaimer: I own a PF CX1 from 2009). One frame sells for over 4X more than the other so obviously there are some differences. And it's not just the pretty color scheme November chose.

joejack951

It is (or can be) an important distinction, though, right? At some point for a given product, the line is drawn as to when you stop looking at where the raw materials going into the product originate. Prior to doing my own research for a product I market (not bike related) I had assumed that a 'Made in USA' claim was fairly easy to justify even with some foreign content. Turns out that isn't the case. The 'All or Virtually All' standard that the FTC sets puts the bar very high. Any significant component of a product must come from the USA to make that claim. I realize you are in Italy so none (or only some) of this matters but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from.

I never said you'd 'flip out' or otherwise act unreasonably. I said you'd file a complaint. Not doing so is only going to cheapen 'Made in Italy' in the long run, and I don't think you want that to happen. 'Made in..." claims, at least in the US, are only 'policed' by the industry itself (much like you describe in your blog post). Someone has to do it otherwise everyone becomes a suspected cheat. The situation is so analogous to the pro peleton it's uncanny

You may think you aren't trying to justify the price but I would have to disagree. That's different than me saying the price isn't justified, just in case you were wondering. If not for building the frame in Italy, how do you account for the massive difference between your frame and other high quality frames on the market? Is there really that much money built into the engineering, process control, and finish quality? Why even mention where it's built if that's the case?

Surely you give me more credit than to think that I believe that or have ever implied anything of the sort in this thread.

And my point has always been that, in my interpretation, the FTC would disagree. If going by the 'All or virtually all' standard, which the FTC clarifies to mean that only 'negligible' foreign content is allowed, I find it hard to ignore the actual carbon fiber filament in your frames.

I appreciate you continuing the discussion, FWIW. You couldn't ask for a better, cheaper advertisement for your products than this thread. You may even get some of my money some day (I was born in November, after all).

UnfilteredDregs

Amazing how backhandedly snide this remark is, bravo.

joejack951

Whatever. Just because we disagree doesn't mean you need to try and paint me as some *******.