Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Shaking my head...

Old 12-24-15, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 12strings View Post
Oh, I'm never number one in my group rides...I simply aim to not be last, or if I am last, at least not get dropped...I aim high!
I agree. And I just did my second ride in nine weeks post crash and I am not happy to say that I came in 'dead last' on our ride up Mt. Soledad this morning.
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Old 12-24-15, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by slimyfrog View Post
PED use at an amateur level makes no sense to me. It would ruin any sense of accomplishment I might ever get out of competing.
only the best amateurs turn pro, so this totally makes sense.
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Old 12-24-15, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
only the best amateurs turn pro, so this totally makes sense.
Might make sense to you. Not to me, sorry. I equate taking PEDs to cheating. I think sports should be about one's physical abilities. Not one's abilities to dope up. To me it makes no sense at any level in sports, much less in amateur level competitions, where the risk vs reward balance is even more nonsensical.
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Old 12-24-15, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by slimyfrog View Post
Might make sense to you. Not to me, sorry. I equate taking PEDs to cheating. I think sports should be about one's physical abilities. Not one's abilities to dope up. To me it makes no sense at any level in sports, much less in amateur level competitions, where the risk vs reward balance is even more nonsensical.
PEDs <> cheating. Some are allowed. Caffeine is not cheating and it is a PED.
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Old 12-24-15, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by slimyfrog View Post
Might make sense to you. Not to me, sorry. I equate taking PEDs to cheating. I think sports should be about one's physical abilities. Not one's abilities to dope up. To me it makes no sense at any level in sports, much less in amateur level competitions, where the risk vs reward balance is even more nonsensical.
making sense of something and approving of it are not the same thing.

It's sad how judgmental people are of others.
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Old 12-24-15, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
PEDs <> cheating. Some are allowed. Caffeine is not cheating and it is a PED.
Really? Down to arguing semantics? You didn't know what PEDs I was talking about?

Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
making sense of something and approving of it are not the same thing.

It's sad how judgmental people are of others.
What's sad is that something can be clearly against the rules and yet people find ways to rationalize it and justify it.
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Old 12-24-15, 10:16 PM
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True. What PEDs are you talking about? Are you saying if a person takes anything on the banned list from USADA or WADA they are cheating? That is a big debate right now. US Soccer Women's National Team player Hope Solo did that - and was judged as not cheating.
It is not that simple.
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Old 12-24-15, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by slimyfrog View Post
What's sad is that something can be clearly against the rules and yet people find ways to rationalize it and justify it.
Almost as sad as how judgmental you are.
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Old 12-24-15, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Almost as sad as how judgmental you are.
I don't agree with you and I'm allowed to do so. There's really no reason to get personal. I gave you reasons why I feel the way I do. You have not said anything to support your points.
If you are trying to change my mind, I don't think your approach will work.
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Old 12-24-15, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by slimyfrog View Post
I don't agree with you and I'm allowed to do so. There's really no reason to get personal. I gave you reasons why I feel the way I do. You have not said anything to support your points.
If you are trying to change my mind, I don't think your approach will work.
who is getting personal?

I don't agree with you. Why are you bothered by that?
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Old 12-25-15, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
And still people here rationalize Lance Armstrong's cheating. When amateurs see pros doing something that "works" they copy. Even down to everyone "needing" to wear Air Jordans. Maybe we should just have two leagues for every sport. One PED free and one with no drug rules.
I support doping - for professional sport: if you don't do it, it's like you're riding with a flat tyre - because most top athletes do that. Pro sport itself is a bad thing IMO.

Doping in amateur sport - it's just like lying to oneself.
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Old 12-25-15, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
I support doping - for professional sport: if you don't do it, it's like you're riding with a flat tyre - because most top athletes do that. Pro sport itself is a bad thing IMO.

Doping in amateur sport - it's just like lying to oneself.
By that logic, you support doping at lower levels, since lower level doping will be needed to be a doped pro.

It trickles down. Pro doping sends the message to high school kids that it is ok, and practically required to reach the top levels.
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Old 12-25-15, 08:51 AM
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In the pro field I suspect it is for the money...the paycheck...Most of these racers have no other option for earning a very good paycheck and if they can get away with doping, even for awhile, they may earn enough to get somewhere in the after life of racing...
On the amateur...general racers, not the guys that want to go pro, qualify for the olympics, etc...level I have no idea why except for the ego thrill of winning...that is a big lure to be sure...but add another branch to the fire. What about the "legal" over the counter supplement industry? Isn't that legalized doping...all kinds of "supplements" that are supposed to make you faster, stronger, burn more fat, etc.

I also wonder why people want to spend so much money trying to get just a bit fitter, faster. The stuff, legal or not, is very expensive and taken on a regular basis must cost a small fortune...
I continue to wonder if the "legal" stuff really works. I've used legal supplements during my racing "career" lol...electrolyte replacements, etc. before, during and after races, during training sessions, etc. and I can not honestly say whether they really did any good at all when weighed against proper nutrition, rest and a good training program...leaving out the genetics of being a top level athlete from the get go.

I can understand the lure in the pro ranks...it may ensure a shaky contract/career or prolong one...it may mean the difference between being a meagerly paid soldier and a handsomely paid "noticed one"...it may mean a future after racing...I suspect the average pro "retires" at an earlier age than the "name" guys and gals...what do they do afterwards??? especially after the "glamour" of the sport.

I have no answers but am generally happy and satisfied that the organizations are generally trying their best? to at least keep it under control.
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Old 12-25-15, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
By that logic, you support doping at lower levels, since lower level doping will be needed to be a doped pro.

It trickles down. Pro doping sends the message to high school kids that it is ok, and practically required to reach the top levels.
It is. The hypocrisy of professional sport and the whole "role model" thing. Parents and teachers, neighbours, those ought to be proper role models. Not some singer or professional sportsman.

This way - everyone is doping, but acting surprised when someone gets caught and marking the caught ones as "exceptions" and "black sheep".

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Old 12-25-15, 10:43 AM
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if i move to a higher elevation to enhance my cardio then move to sea level to compete, is that cheating?
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Old 12-25-15, 10:50 AM
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if it's good enough for the U.S. government to do then...

" The character is usually depicted as the alter ego of Steve Rogers, a frail young man enhanced to the peak of human perfection by an experimental serum to aid the United States government's imminent efforts in World War II."
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Old 12-25-15, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by sgtdirt View Post
if it's good enough for the U.S. government to do then... " The character is usually depicted as the alter ego of Steve Rogers, a frail young man enhanced to the peak of human perfection by an experimental serum to aid the United States government's imminent efforts in World War II."
1960's cartoon hero Underdog had an "Underdog secret energy pill" which he took when he was getting his butt whipped.

Leaving aside the health risks and the role model issues---Every sport is defined buy the rules. One can debate the rules, but so long as they are in place the rules define the sport. it is not an issue of social impact but rather the value of that particular sport per se. What happens to baseball if one team is allowed to tackle opposing base runners? What happens to football if the defense doesn't have to wait for the ball to be snapped?

What happens to cycling if one team is allowed to ride 12-pound bikes?

Pretty soon, no one will care who wins because the rules are arbitrary. The sport goes out of business, the players have nothing, the fans find other passtimes. (Actually, a lot of cyclists I know stopped watching the sport even before the Lance Armstrong debacle because they knew it was all about pharmacology, not physicality.)

Using banned substances ... sure, next year those same substances might be allowed, but if they are outside the rules this year, using them provides an unfair advantage which endangers the sport.

As for the amateurs who dope ... either they are young and hope to get contracts, or they are delusional ... if you are not riding on a Pro Continental team by age 23 or so, you aren't going to make it as a pro cyclist. There might be the rare exception, or the semi-pro who is willing to take any risk just to ride competitively for a few more seasons ... but the club racers who dope? Pathetic. At that level there is no reward beyond victory, but since they are actually playing a different sport, they aren't beating anyone even if they cross the line first.

However, for those people obviously the thrill of finishing first outweighs all the other emotions, so they do it.

I don't care much about those aging ex-Cat 1-2 riders who can't let go ... i don't care if they shorten their lives by taking drugs. I am really bothered by the upcoming youth who think that it si all right, or even necessary, to play with their long-term health to reach their short-term goals.

Originally Posted by sgtdirt View Post
if i move to a higher elevation to enhance my cardio then move to sea level to compete, is that cheating?
Depends entirely upon the rules of the particular league of the particular sport in which you compete.
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Old 12-25-15, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Using banned substances ... sure, next year those same substances might be allowed, but if they are outside the rules this year, using them provides an unfair advantage which endangers the sport.
If others use it (and in pro sport like cycling that is the case), then NOT using doping gives opponents an unfair advantage. Until they test for doping at least each of the top 20 finishers of each race. Have they started doing that?


Another aspect, often looked over:
If I have better genes, do I have an unfair advantage? Doping doesn't make cycling any easier, it just allows cyclist to suffer more, going faster, without body giving in. So it makes physical aspect more equal, allowing those who train hardest and try hardest in a race to win.
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Old 12-25-15, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
1960's cartoon hero Underdog had an "Underdog secret energy pill" which he took when he was getting his butt whipped.
so, kids are taught from an early age that taking a "special pill" will help over come inabilities?

Depends entirely upon the rules of the particular league of the particular sport in which you compete.
that is the best non-answer i've ever read. how does a ruling authority make a ruling on that? "sorry, sir, but you lived in Denver and this race is being held in San Diego, you are disqualified from competing since you trained in a high elevation area".
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Old 12-25-15, 11:43 AM
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probably the only sport with which "doping" is acceptable and encouraged is pro bodybuilding. is anyone fooled by the freakishly large muscles these people attain and not think it's un-natural or chemically
enhanced?
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Old 12-25-15, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
If others use it (and in pro sport like cycling that is the case), then NOT using doping gives opponents an unfair advantage. Until they test for doping at least each of the top 20 finishers of each race. Have they started doing that?
Doping because you think your opponents are is still against the rules. If you Know they are doping, turn them in. If you only use your suspicion that they are doping to justify your own drug use, then you might be the one with the unfair advantage.

Either way, you cannot blame others for your own choices.
Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
If I have better genes, do I have an unfair advantage? Doping doesn't make cycling any easier, it just allows cyclist to suffer more, going faster, without body giving in. So it makes physical aspect more equal, allowing those who train hardest and try hardest in a race to win.
Since sport is the test of individual against individual, it is a test of genetics. it is much more than that, because someone with better native abilities might not work as hard or be willing to suffer as much as the next guy.

Look at Pete Rose. He outperformed much more gifted athletes by sheer effort. Look at the thousands of college players who never make pro sports. A lot of them were so incredibly genetically gifted, they never learned to really go all out. When it came to the big leagues, they found that the guys who were willing to give it all on the practice field, then spend more time watching films to analyze their own performance, then spend time watching films of their opponents, or studying the playbook, or whatever ... they guys with fewer natural gifts but stronger wills or greater desire, got the spot on the team.

And then you could argue that will and desire are also genetic, at which point we come back to the basis of inter-human competition: sports test which is the best at the sport. The winner is the winner, whichever mix of abilities and efforts, genes and training and diet, whatever ...

You make the rules, the players compete within the rules. The best come out on top.

A sport could try to control for every variable---making sure each player had exactly the same coaching, sports psychologist, trainers, exercise equipment, diet, whatever ... But it soon becomes impossible to regulate everything. The rules cover what they sensibly can. Whoever wins, within those rules, wins.

If you take PEDs which are banned by the rules, that is an unfair advantage. if you work harder, have better coaching, are smarter, all that ... is what sports tests for. Do away with all differences and there is no sport.

Originally Posted by sgtdirt View Post
Quote Originally posted by Maelochs: "Depends entirely upon the rules of the particular league of the particular sport in which you compete."

that is the best non-answer i've ever read. how does a ruling authority make a ruling on that? "sorry, sir, but you lived in Denver and this race is being held in San Diego, you are disqualified from competing since you trained in a high elevation area".
No sir, that is a very specific and completely accurate answer, for anyone interested in actually reading it and thinking about it.

If in the sport in which you compete, in the league in which you compete, moving to high-altitude locations to train is banned, then it is illegal. If it is not, then it is not.

Open minds are wonderful things.

Originally Posted by sgtdirt View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Maelochs: “1960's cartoon hero Underdog had an "Underdog secret energy pill" which he took when he was getting his butt whipped.”

so, kids are taught from an early age that taking a "special pill" will help over come inabilities?
Meant more as a joke, but then, Popeye had his spinach. In classical Greek literature (the tiny bit I have second-hand exposure to) the heroes were generally enhanced by the gods to succeed in their trials.

The idea of some magic enhancement or special substance or outside aid giving extraordinary results is not new.

But then, I am sure the people who learned to cook meat triumphed because their opponents who ate meat raw had tapeworms ... so was fire the first performance enhancer? it gets thorny ... which is why I try to define ‘right” and “wrong” according to the rules of the specific sport in that specific instance. If testosterone is banned but androgen or whatever is not (Think Mark McGuire’s home run record) then even though I may not honor the achievement, it was not against the rule, so it is “okay”.

Originally Posted by sgtdirt View Post
probably the only sport with which "doping" is acceptable and encouraged is pro bodybuilding. is anyone fooled by the freakishly large muscles these people attain and not think it's un-natural or chemically enhanced?
There is actually a whole second sport of bodybuilding where competitors do not use drugs—and of course, they look a lot more like actual human beings who developed muscles by eating right and exercising hard.

There is no money in it, because people like the freak show and are used to it now, but everyone who knows anything about bodybuilding knows that it is all about the drugs. Yeah, the guys have to spend hours in the gym killing themselves with exercise, but if they don’t also kill themselves with steroids, they won’t make the first cut.

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Old 12-25-15, 01:48 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Doping because you think your opponents are is still against the rules. If you Know they are doping, turn them in. If you only use your suspicion that they are doping to justify your own drug use, then you might be the one with the unfair advantage.

Either way, you cannot blame others for your own choices.
Nor is it OK to blame others for their choices.

Knowing people do something without evidence doesn't work. Been playing football (soccer) for years. Opponents pull each other all the time. It is against the rules, but if you don't do it when the ref isn't watching, you're giving your opponents an advantage - since they are doing it. No use going to the referee and complaining about something he didn't see and therefore can't sanction (that part is by the rules). Began to respect that just as I respect good dribbling skills - pulling things off without the ref seeing is a skill in itself. Same with doping. Not in football, but pro cycling - I'm certain most of them use doping - some during training, some in competition as well. Do they ever test top 10, or 20 in Tour de France? If they do, my remarks don't stand - it's a clean sport. Talking about pro sport where people make living out of it.

There's unfair competition in most sports. A good way IMO is US Basketball. With salary cap and limited number of teams. Unlike European football where richer teams have a far greater advantage.

Sports where athleticism and body and mind strength are the key factor - like athletics, or cycling, are sports where doping is used extensively. It's like an elephant in the room that nobody wants to notice and talk about. Repeating - if doping testing is stricter (I don't follow for years now), all my remarks don't stand... but then doping wouldn't pay for pro sportsmen, since they would quickly get caught.


I think both doping and professional sport are bad things and should be banned all together. Doping in amateur sport is just stupid - vanity or worse.
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Old 12-25-15, 02:02 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Slaninar View Post
Nor is it OK to blame others for their choices.
I absolutely hold people responsible for their choices.

You are saying, "It's not a crime if you don't get caught .... in fact, it's a talent."

So a guy who serial rapes or serial kills for years without getting caught is ... skilled?

Yeah, people cheat in sports all the time. And if you chose to cheat too, go for it. And if you get caught and penalized, banned, lose all your promotion contracts ... whatever. if your son's or daughter's heart explodes and the child dies die at age 18 for using PEDs incautiously ... oh well. Should have been more skilled, eh?

I certainly can hold everyone, including myself, responsible for the choices we all make.

Ask yourself how you would feel if your child got caught cheating on a test at school? Then ask yourself if you would praise him/her for saying, "Everyone does it. I've been cheating for years and getting away with it." There is not always a right answer, but honestly, would you praise your child for stealing answers from the teacher's desk and not getting caught? How about shoplifting?

How would you feel if you child was caught taking steroids?

Like I say, no right or wrong answers .... just questions which could provoke thoughts.
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Old 12-25-15, 09:46 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
No sir, that is a very specific and completely accurate answer, for anyone interested in actually reading it and thinking about it.

If in the sport in which you compete, in the league in which you compete, moving to high-altitude locations to train is banned, then it is illegal. If it is not, then it is not.
please be more specific. what sport or competition would fall under your statement?

Open minds are wonderful things.
huh? what are you trying to imply?

There is actually a whole second sport of bodybuilding where competitors do not use drugs—and of course, they look a lot more like actual human beings who developed muscles by eating right and exercising hard.

There is no money in it, because people like the freak show and are used to it now, but everyone who knows anything about bodybuilding knows that it is all about the drugs. Yeah, the guys have to spend hours in the gym killing themselves with exercise, but if they don’t also kill themselves with steroids, they won’t make the first cut.
most, if not all, of the very top bodybuilders are monitored by a hired physician. they will cycle through different dose use (i.e. on for 3 weeks off for 6 weeks). if they didn't -because of the massive doses- it would shut there system down (manly their liver).
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Old 12-25-15, 09:51 PM
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let's say i go to GNC or some type of "nutrition store", and buy up ever performance enhancing product they sell. in doing so, my performance sky rockets. is that cheating?
or i hire a coach (because i have a lot of $) and he has me doing a special, cycling specific training program. mean while, none of my competitors can afford the same coaching. is that cheating?
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