Planemaker

I had the same issue with a Bontrager tubeless tire this year. I was actually trying to put a tube in and the tire would hold air but in one spot it was not completly on the bead (when I spun the tire, you see it was out of round). The remedy was as mentioned earlier, find the spot that need to be seated and gently roll the tire towards the side that is seated. Eventually the tire went on the bead with no additonal problems.

dalava

No I can't, because it would seat even with tubes with these tires.

dvdslw

And we'll see you on the side of the road with your pinch flat. Why is there always a tubeless hater that responds to tubeless threads? Just sayin!

dalava

heard back from American Classic, and they recommend to pump the PSI to at least 100-110. Haven't tried anything yet, as my garage is too cold to work on this. Just ordered some thinner AC tubeless tape in case the Stan's thicker tape is the problem. I am ready to go at it again when it gets warmer.

chaadster

That's kinda funny, because their own wheel literature says 120psi or tire maximum.

Anyway, I just wrestled a pair of Schwalbe S-One 30c tires onto AC Victory 30s, and it was a test of resolve. Got 'em on there by hand, though; trick was using a towel and rolling the last stretch of bead on with as much force as I could muster from my palms. It was hard.

UnfilteredDregs

Palmolive is your friend Man!

chaadster

Yeah, I was probably to sparing with the soapy sponge, and on top of that, I used a pretty diluted and thin Whole Foods sourced organic dish soap which is really pretty crappy insofar as dish soap goes, doing little to coat and lubricate, but my wife is all about "organic" stuff whether it works or not, so that's what I had.

Maybe a little bottle of Palmolive will need to go in my toolbox for the next tire install, which will be Vittoria Speed Corsa TLRs on the Argents come spring time.

Phlorida

It sounds as though the towel worked OK. I keep these in my tool box for the sole purpose of wrestling tires onto the wheel and they are very effective. They were under $10 at the local hardware store.

chaadster

Good idea! Thanks!

Psimet2001 

HAHAHAHA...no you won't. I think the last actual pinch flat I got on a tube was probably 2008 and it was because I was running tubed cross clinchers and running 28psi. I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I got an honest to goodness flat on the road. Some people and locations are just prone to flats. I get that. I've never really been one of them.

Because there is a distinct issue with the "technology" thus the thread. Too many people get the idea in their head that this is something they HAVE to try because it will somehow be life changing and then spend an inordinate amount of time having all sorts of problems getting it all to work when in reality if they had just thrown a tube in there they would be out and riding. There's nothing wrong with people providing perspective.

I'll go out on a limb and say they have made a lot of progress in tubeless technology even though personally I don't believe they have. I'll even say that there are supposedly great benefits for some in road tire and mtb tire applications...but.... like most technology in cycling it: really isn't solving a problem for most, ends up being more of a pain than a benefit, develops a small vocal crowd that become near cult like with their unwavering dedication to the technology.

It's exactly like road disc brakes. Definitely not needed. Has some benefits to a minority but generally not beneficial for most but because it is a technological change it will be viewed as somehow an improvement and therefore should receive support.

If the goal is truly to ride bikes then sometimes the solution is to move on and just go riding and let the technology catch up. In other words - throw a tube in it and go riding. Just sayin.

RNAV

As a rule, I don't recommend people ride clincher tires whose beads haven't seated into the rim whether theres a tube in there or not. Just sayin.

UnfilteredDregs

I'd say I'm in a flat prone location, and as you say this is where tubeless shines.

You put a heavy emphasis spin on the supposed negatives of road tubeless, derived from what I'll say is your extensive CX background, that simply isn't factual in my and quite a few others folks direct experience. I, and many others get that due to the uniqueness of CX demands tubeless may not be quite where it needs to be in that application yet.

Nevertheless, your word carries a great deal of weight with quite a few folks on this forum, the funny thing is I've ventured onto quite a few other forums, have read and participated in discussions with other wheel builders (who don't participate here...)with similiar reputations of good standing as yours, and a great many of them have the opposite conclusion that you so readily push.

People here ought to know that as well.

Road tubeless works quite well for a great deal of people even though standards, etc.. are in the process of being worked out.

If you go with a good rim and tire from reputable manufacturers it works extremely well without a hitch for most and is simply superior to tube/tire. It virtually eliminates flats, is safer when you do puncture, and provides a far better ride quality than the entirety of what I'd describe as conventional flat protected/armored/belted, etc.. clinchers.

I'd stay away from American Classics rims (OP) for tubeless use, this isn't the first time I've heard of issues where their product is in the equation.

chaadster

Interesting take on AC. I just re-upped with a second tubeless set from them as their one of the few tubeless manufacturers I trust.

I've read Bill Shook's thoughts on tubeless quite a lot, and his concerns and design objectives are quite reassuring to me, and he's never shy about being out on his own or ahead of the curve if he thinks it's right. He doesn't chase trends, that's for sure.

dvdslw

While I don't agree completely with Psimet, he at least acknowledges that there's benefits to tubeless technology. I'd say the technology has finally got to where it needs to be but there's still some crappy products out there which is the only thing that needs to be "worked out". I've had great results with my Ultegra wheels that served me well for a couple years tubeless without issue. Yes, I did have some trouble getting my first set of Fusion 3's on them and was a bit intimidated about the whole process but after some practice it became easy and I don't even think twice about it now. I went through 3 sets of Fusion 3's and two sets of Schwalbe One's with no tire related flats and the ride was great.

Fast Forward to today and I'm now riding on a set of Easton ec90sl's which are a 38mm deep carbon wheel that are "Certified" road tubeless which means the rims are sealed inside with no spoke holes and no need for rim tape along with a set of the new Schwalbe Pro One's. I just don't see it getting any better than this, every time I get on the bike I can't help but smile because it rides so good and only wish I could lend Psimet my wheel/tire setup for the day so he could experience what I'm feeling, might change his tune? But then again, might be a conflict of interest for him?

I mentioned that my new wheels are "certified" road tubeless because in my opinion this is the only area that needs attention at this point. Give anyone a set of c24tl's, Ultegra's, Campy/Fulcrum 2way fit's, or any tubeless Easton wheel which are all sealed inside and any current tubeless tire on the market and tubeless just works effortlessly. Besides difficulty mounting tubeless tires incorrectly, issues with rim tape is one of the most common failures with the tech. No need for tape, no issues. Why would three of the biggest wheel manufacturers only do tubeless tapeless? Because it works every time.

I know there's plenty of guys out there running road tubeless using tape successfully and I hope it continues to work for you but wouldn't you rather have a sealed rim if given the choice? Some of you should remember my problems with two different sets of Assault's where the finish work inside the wheel where the tape sticks was so uneven that they just leaked profusely, no matter how much sealant I pumped in them. I tried re-taping, bike shop tried re-taping, tried all different kinds of tapes, replacement set of wheels, three flats in one day all rim related, and a two month long ordeal buying, trying to fix, and returning the wheels for a full refund. If this was my first tubeless experience it would have likely been my last but I've been on the good side of it longer than the bad and just needed the right equipment to do it correctly.

Funny thing is that I was so frustrated with the whole Reynolds Tubeless ordeal and just wanted to ride my new wheels that I did as Psimet said and just threw a tube in them and ended up pinch flatting about 20mi from home.

chaadster

I can certainly dig the appeal of "hole-less" inner rim beds, but I wonder if that's really a significant factor in tubeless resistance. I mean, we all tape clinchers, so it's not a foreign practice, although granted it's not quite as "mission critical" as it is for TL. But given the griping I hear about proprietary parts and specific tools, I wonder if most people are ready to accept the tradeoffs for sealed rim beds, e.g. double threaded nipples, nipple magnets, and the inconvenience of adapting to those things?

But also, how often is TL taping the trouble spot? It doesn't seem as prominent a problem as fitting and inflating the rubber, dealing with adding, checking, and cleaning up sealant, and concerns about tire weight and limited selection. Even in your case, Dvdslw, the tape was not the issue but rather the flaw of the uneven rim bed seam. Sure, it wouldn't have been an issue were the rim bed sealed, but still not really a tape issue I feel; the rim should have been made properly.

With regards to tape longevity or durability, I also question whether that's a significant issue. It's inside the wheel, out of danger's way, so what could happen to it? Again, bigger issues seem to plague sealant composition and aluminum reactivity concerns; the Shimano "ammonium free" requirement is still something that's not well spelled out for most sealant, and it's hard to find out which is suitable and which isn't. And if it's a Shimano issue, why isn't anyone else talking about it? Or should they? Is anodizing the answer, is it a non-issue, or have sealants changed? I don't know the answer to these questions, but those are the kinds of things that give me pause, not concern for the condition of my rim tape.

All else equal, yeah, I'd prefer not to have to run tape, but avoiding taping wasn't enough to make me run tubulars, and it's not enough to prevent me from running tubeless. And, it's certainly far from equal; I just picked up a $400 set of 30mm deep, 18.1mm inner width AC Victory30 wheels that need tape, but after looking at the options from the sealed bed manufacturers you list, I found no one offering a competitive wheel (in aluminum; winter bike, so braking premium) by features and price. None offer the width, none offer the height. Easton's EA90SLX were tempting, but besides being shorter and narrower, were $100 more. It just didn't make sense for me to trade off on everything else to get a sealed rim bed. Based on my experience with the AC Argents, now going into their 4th season, rim tape seems not be an issue.

dvdslw

That's good news Chaadster and you're right, my issues were with the rim being uneven and not simply a "tape" issue. I guess I'm still a bit sore about the whole ordeal with the Assault's and take every opportunity to make it known that there's an issue there concerning tape. But, if we look back to the op who is running American Classic's and having a tough time getting the bead seated, he probably would have been better off leaving AC's honey tape alone and lubing the crap out of the tire instead of switching to the Stan's? Now, there's no telling if the Stan's tape is too thick, too wide, or what? I was on the fence for about a year wanting some Argent's and almost pulled the trigger but scored what I thought was a killer deal on the Assaults, we all know how that turned out.

I know I'm probably taking the tape issue to the extreme but I had an issue, the op is having an issue (although not resolved yet), another member had air leaking just as I did on his new set of Zipp Course 30's (which are aluminum), and several others with unraveling tape inside when they dismount the tires. All it takes is one corner to lift and the sealant sloshing around inside will lift the tape and voila you have troubles. Out of all the taped wheels, American Classic seems to have the best solution with the first stranded layer to seal the spoke holes and then the two layers of their honey tape plus the best quality valve stems to finish them off.

On a side note, don't the Argent's have proprietary spokes and nipples? The Victory 30's appear to have standard off the shelf parts though?

Looigi

You can use tire levers to mount a tubeless tire as there's no chance of pinching the tube. Several manufacturers of tubeless tire systems recommend doing so. Obviously you don't want to apply enough force to damage anything, but with proper technique, tire levers are OK.

chaadster

Let's slow down a minute here... The OP is not an example of a tape issue; his front tire seated just fine, the rear was being stubborn. What does that have to do with tape? Yours wasn't a tape issue, and Zipp 30s arent even tubeless, but you're hanging a "tape issue" on them?!? C'mon now...

I'm certainly with you on the OP using AC tape on their AC wheels. Like I said earlier, Bill Shook and AC are one of the few wheel manufacturers who talk about designing tubeless wheels, and indeed wheels in general, as a system, where each component is selected to work alongside the others to create a better wheel. So within that context, yeah, why mess with it if it works (which it does). BUT...we don't have good reason believe there is a problem with Stan's tape, or that Stan's tape is the source of the problem!

Lastly, yes, the Argents have proprietary spokes and nipples (unless the spokes are actually Sapim CXs, which I've wondered about given their width. CX, not CX-Ray). The Victory30 use the same. In fact, I think the V30s might be the hottest hookup in budget tubeless because they offer supportive, wide, aero section spokes, AC's thru-rim threaded nipples, wide and tall-ish rims, and the economy finished, but wide bearing stance, Victory front hub, which seems to be just a cheaply finished Micro 58. The rear Victory hub seems like a cheaply finished and non-lightened version of their 205, and so while not offering the differential flange height for 2:1 lacing and other goodies, does have the nice steel faced alloy AC hub body.

chaadster

AC expressly forbid levers on the Argents, and as thin as the rims walls gotta be to squeeze 19.4mm BSW out a 22mm wide rim, I'm ok with that!

bored117 

To OP... I actually got 2 sets installed in last 2 weeks myself... (pro one 23mm and 28mm each).
23mm was on my HED Ardennes + LT... Didn't need even lever to put the tires on and I think it was easier to put tires on than some tires & rim combo I had to. Was pretty easy to seat it too... (I was fine just using floor pump on this one)
28mm was on my wife's Shimano RS81 24CL... (yup... not TL... ended up doing stans tape, etc) This one was a little harder to mount in. I actually had to use tire lever on one of the wheel. When trying to seat it, I actually had issues with some portion of it not seating just like you did... maybe about 3-4 inch section of it. One of the wheel, I had to shape the tire around trying to space things evenly as it looked like to me the valve side was inflating first and pulling tires that way... and used rather forceful air from my nitrogen tank (yeah I have one laying around for brazing, etc)... I would imagine decent compressed air tank would do same. The other one, after not being able to do this for about 10 minutes, I decided to take the tire off from wheel, rotate it 180 degrees and install it in giving it a shot. Funny enough, it seated right on after that. Maybe you can rotate the tire around a little and try again is what I am thinking. Once they are seated... it was spot on.
On my first 40 mile ride after installation, I got a thorn in it... I think. Didn't realize it... came back home... about 5 days later, I was tuning up the bike and found front tire pressure being about 20 lower than it was... looked around and found a thorn (rose thorn it looked like), embedded... took it out and spun the wheel (okay I SHOULD cover area around when I do this... as I had some orange goop flying around for short time), and it sealed up. Put some air on, went on ride next day, today, it still seem to hold the air fine. Bottom line, that thorn would have stopped my ride which it didn't... I didn't have to spend the time to repair the tube, etc... (okay I did have to clean up the little mass that happened... ) and when I am riding in adverse condition, I am not too worried about getting flat. And it is a smooth ride!!!
So far I am quite happy with it. Might get my commuter one with one that might last longer (for cost reasons)... as usually I have train to catch in my commute and flat means I miss one or two trains... (and it always happens when I am running late!)

dvdslw

Chaadster, the Zipp Course 30's are Zipp's first tubeless offering and come in both rim and disc brake versions. These are the new 2015 models, not to be confused with the original Zipp 30's. Here's a link Zipp - Speed Weaponry | Wheels | 30 Course Rim-brake Clincher

chaadster

Oh, thanks! I noticed the "Course" but dismissed it; I should have known you're more meticulous than to make an error like that!

dvdslw

You give me too much credit my friend. I really wanted to like the course 30's and considered them for a short time but their weight was a deal breaker for me. I don't know about you but it seems now is an exciting time for us tubeless guys with tires like the Pro One's and Vittoria's soon to be released Open Corsa TLR's, plus some new wheels hitting the market like the new DT Swiss Dicut R21's, they're tubeless, wide, and right at 1,400 grams with DT240 Hubs. Vittoria is also about to release some Tubeless Carbon Clinchers as well. It's nice to see some more options out there and it shows that the technology is moving forward, problem now is my wallet can't handle the pressure!

Psimet2001 

Most assuredly not. Just about every wheelset we've sold for hte last few years that has been clincher has been a "tubeless ready" setup. I switched to only putting tubeless tape on as rim strips about a year or two ago unless the rim just isn't tubeless compliant.

Seriously though - I ride a lot of different stuff. Tubular and clincher with latex tubes. Tubeless on mountain bike. etc... Like I've said multiple times - I'm just not a fan of road tubeless. I have my reasons and most of them are from having to fix stuff for others when they mess it up, inconsistent product quality, Seeing guys pull out of races covered in sealant, etc. Just not the right application for what I find I do most.

As with me and my views on tubeless - don't blame the technology - blame the user. The only people I ever see in the shop that come in with pinch flats are those who are riding too low of a pressure or lead assed it over something massive. Out of all of the flats we repair (this being through the shop so one of the most popular bike paths in Chicago..and think path users) pinch flats are in the <10% range. Almost all are from hitting something that punctures them. These riders - without a doubt - would technically benefit from tubeless if the sealant would last for 20+ years and not eat away the tires but alas...they are "stuck" with tubes that just ...well....work.

Chandne

I have my reasons for moving to tubeless and discs in the mountains but I do think the technology will keep getting more effective in the next year or two. I almost never "convert" tires (except my fat bike Specialized tires which have an excellent track record of being run tubeless, and even at 2 psi) but generally use TL tires and TL-ready rims. The nice thing is that throwing a tube in there is a good option, if needed. I have been running tubes on my Pacentis. I'll be sure to revisit this thread when converting both my bikes to tubeless soon. Well, I have the third Cross bike too but will not use tape on that one since the wheels are not tubeless ready. There is this product called the "Fatty Stripper" that I have cut to width and will use that to build up the bead. It is a very thin stretchy rubber strip normally used for fat bike tires to go tubeless. I just used it and it is amazing on the fat bike anyway. The bead stayed put at 2 psi (I aired it up initially to ~15 psi but usually ride at 2-5 psi) and I was putting some pressure on them yesterday, including a few 1-2-high jumps/landing. Will report back on how it works on the Cross bike. It is worth considering if you need a better bead-to-bead interface. It is also light and does not absorb sealant. When I bought a pair of strips, the owner told me he was sending quite a few to road and cross riders (one set can be cut to two sets for skinny wheels). That sounded interesting so I'll give that a shot on one bike. In the meantime, I am narrowing down my choice of TL-ready rims so I can get a set built up.

The more people use road tubeless, the faster the technology will improve. I say go for it! While it isn't going to be as game-changing as on MTBs, it will help a certain section of road cyclists.