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Modern Steel Road Bike Appreciation Thread

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Modern Steel Road Bike Appreciation Thread

Old 01-21-16, 08:50 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
That, right there, says a WHOLE lot about this conversation. Richard Sachs.
??
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Old 01-21-16, 08:56 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
What you're failing to see is that you keep changing the terms. First you asked, "why not fillet braze?" It is fillet brazed. Then you say the paint "obliterates any suggestion of precision, thoughtfulness, or skilled handiwork," but I'm willing to bet you've never seen a lugged steel ISM junction before, let alone with custom made lugs, two things right there-- even if you don't know fillet brazing when you see it-- that reek of "precision, thoughtfulness, and skilled handiwork," and which, arguably, cannot be made without those things.

So do you know what you're talking about? I don't think so. I think you don't like the paint job and don't get the aesthetic, and are trying to cook up some clever sounding rationale to explain it's not to your taste, because you like old style stuff.

Everything on that bike is rendered in monochrome paint -- from the seat mast topper to the headset dust cover-- and matte black components, expressly for the purpose of presenting a uniquely uniform aesthetic, which compels the viewer to look at the bike in the whole, yet you want them to highlight junction details which would directly contravene the overarching aesthetic goal.

To say you don't "get it" is a wild understatement, and you should be happy to leave it there. Immanuel Kant said there is no argument if a man says something is pleasing to him, rather than pleasing in and of itself. Beauty is not an intrinsic truth, but an agreed upon property of a thing. Suggesting that bike is wearing an "unflattering sack" is proof that you are interested only in your simple opinion, and unable to aggregate an aesthetic interpretation which doesn't correspond with a narrative of precedent forms. I suppose that's more of a post-modernist approach, but your example of a detail pic of old fashioned lug work would confirm that you're not there yet.
I think what he is getting at is that the paint is a bit thick, which sort of masks the edges of the lug. I can see that as it almost looks powder coated since it seems so thick. Nothing wrong with it, but if you look at that seat tube junction compared with the lug edges of the orange-ish head tube on the other bike, you can see the difference.
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Old 01-21-16, 09:09 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
What you're failing to see is that you keep changing the terms. First you asked, "why not fillet braze?" It is fillet brazed. Then you say the paint "obliterates any suggestion of precision, thoughtfulness, or skilled handiwork," but I'm willing to bet you've never seen a lugged steel ISM junction before, let alone with custom made lugs, two things right there-- even if you don't know fillet brazing when you see it-- that reek of "precision, thoughtfulness, and skilled handiwork," and which, arguably, cannot be made without those things.

So do you know what you're talking about? I don't think so. I think you don't like the paint job and don't get the aesthetic, and are trying to cook up some clever sounding rationale to explain it's not to your taste, because you like old style stuff.

Everything on that bike is rendered in monochrome paint -- from the seat mast topper to the headset dust cover-- and matte black components, expressly for the purpose of presenting a uniquely uniform aesthetic, which compels the viewer to look at the bike in the whole, yet you want them to highlight junction details which would directly contravene the overarching aesthetic goal.

To say you don't "get it" is a wild understatement, and you should be happy to leave it there. Immanuel Kant said there is no argument if a man says something is pleasing to him, rather than pleasing in and of itself. Beauty is not an intrinsic truth, but an agreed upon property of a thing. Suggesting that bike is wearing an "unflattering sack" is proof that you are interested only in your simple opinion, and unable to aggregate an aesthetic interpretation which doesn't correspond with a narrative of precedent forms. I suppose that's more of a post-modernist approach, but your example of a detail pic of old fashioned lug work would confirm that you're not there yet.
As a woodworker, I compare this to hand-cut dovetail joints. On the one hand, back in the day, people used dovetails because they didn't have screws or reliable glue...he joint was practical first of all. It was strong. MANY OLD dovetailed chests were painted rather than oil finished, even though it mostly covered the detailed dovetail. in fact, many pieces of furniture were designed so that the dovetails were hidden by other pieces of wood.

Now, many modern woodworkers will instead leave their dovetailed boxes clearcoated so everyone can see their fancy Joinery. Same joint, but one person wants to make it the highlight, the older style was to make the overall shape of the piece be the highlight.

Which one is right? I don't know. I like both.
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Old 01-21-16, 09:09 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by RJM View Post
I think what he is getting at is that the paint is a bit thick, which sort of masks the edges of the lug. I can see that as it almost looks powder coated since it seems so thick. Nothing wrong with it, but if you look at that seat tube junction compared with the lug edges of the orange-ish head tube on the other bike, you can see the difference.
Yes, I understand that, but what I'm going on about is the other garbage he threw in there to say just exactly there is something wrong with it.

Again, had he just said it wasn't to his taste...fine. Instead, it's "obliterates" craftsmanship, finish work is "equivocal" and looks like an "unflattering sack."

My point is that he doesn't have the context or understanding to appreciate what that bike represents. I wouldn't have gone there, and just let him have his opinion, but he wanted to mix up his uninformed opinion with absolutes, and open a discussion about aesthetic philosophy, so, we're having that conversation.
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Old 01-21-16, 09:18 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by 12strings View Post
As a woodworker, I compare this to hand-cut dovetail joints. On the one hand, back in the day, people used dovetails because they didn't have screws or reliable glue...he joint was practical first of all. It was strong. MANY OLD dovetailed chests were painted rather than oil finished, even though it mostly covered the detailed dovetail. in fact, many pieces of furniture were designed so that the dovetails were hidden by other pieces of wood.

Now, many modern woodworkers will instead leave their dovetailed boxes clearcoated so everyone can see their fancy Joinery. Same joint, but one person wants to make it the highlight, the older style was to make the overall shape of the piece be the highlight.

Which one is right? I don't know. I like both.
Great example, and absolutely, and you're analysis reveals a depth of understanding of furniture making both from a technical and cultural perspective which gives value to your critique. You have the Kantian perspective, which understands the beauty of something is the recognition of socially agreed upon and contextualized definitions. The rose is not beautiful because it is a rose, but because we say it is beautiful. Dovetails were not beautiful back in the day because they were practical, unfinished, and unrefined. Today they are beautiful because they express a distinguishing level of craftsmanship. Only the context has changed.
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Old 01-21-16, 09:19 AM
  #131  
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Six pages and no Indy Fab bikes. Sad! The frame was given to me and I built it up over the last year pulling stuff from CL mainly. It is a fantastic bike to ride.

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Old 01-21-16, 09:23 AM
  #132  
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We got off to a good start.

Let's keep this thread positive and skip the bickering.
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Old 01-21-16, 09:24 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
??
Would you put a lot of stock in the opinion of a theatre critic who never heard of Shakespere?
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Old 01-21-16, 09:26 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Would you put a lot of stock in the opinion of a theatre critic who never heard of Shakespere?
Would you put a lot of stock in the opinion of someone who didn't know how to spell Shakespeare?
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Old 01-21-16, 09:27 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Would you put a lot of stock in the opinion of a theatre critic who never heard of Shakespere?
Again, this is an appreciation thread. Not one to bicker and attempt to show off how much one knows about steel bikes.

Let's keep it positive and have something good here.
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Old 01-21-16, 09:32 AM
  #136  
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Old 01-21-16, 09:54 AM
  #137  
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Also no LeMonds so far, although most are not "modern" as in "new", this one is:

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Old 01-21-16, 10:02 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
What you're failing to see is that you keep changing the terms. First you asked, "why not fillet braze?" It is fillet brazed. Then you say the paint "obliterates any suggestion of precision, thoughtfulness, or skilled handiwork," but I'm willing to bet you've never seen a lugged steel ISM junction before, let alone with custom made lugs, two things right there-- even if you don't know fillet brazing when you see it-- that reek of "precision, thoughtfulness, and skilled handiwork," and which, arguably, cannot be made without those things.

So do you know what you're talking about? I don't think so. I think you don't like the paint job and don't get the aesthetic, and are trying to cook up some clever sounding rationale to explain it's not to your taste, because you like old style stuff.

Everything on that bike is rendered in monochrome paint -- from the seat mast topper to the headset dust cover-- and matte black components, expressly for the purpose of presenting a uniquely uniform aesthetic, which compels the viewer to look at the bike in the whole, yet you want them to highlight junction details which would directly contravene the overarching aesthetic goal.

To say you don't "get it" is a wild understatement, and you should be happy to leave it there. Immanuel Kant said there is no argument if a man says something is pleasing to him, rather than pleasing in and of itself. Beauty is not an intrinsic truth, but an agreed upon property of a thing. Suggesting that bike is wearing an "unflattering sack" is proof that you are interested only in your simple opinion, and unable to aggregate an aesthetic interpretation which doesn't correspond with a narrative of precedent forms. I suppose that's more of a post-modernist approach, but your example of a detail pic of old fashioned lug work would confirm that you're not there yet.
Just a small correction. The frame is not fillet brazed, it is lugged/brazed.
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Old 01-21-16, 10:05 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
Also no LeMonds so far, although most are not "modern" as in "new", this one is:
Woah, is that steel? What is with that top tube?
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Old 01-21-16, 10:07 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
Also no LeMonds so far, although most are not "modern" as in "new", this one is:

I definitely dig that color. I think I want a crazy color on my new steel roadie.
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Old 01-21-16, 10:08 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
Woah, is that steel? What is with that top tube?
Yes it's steel. Reynolds 853 IIRC. Here's another photo where the top tube doesn't seem so skinny.
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Old 01-21-16, 10:15 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
I definitely dig that color. I think I want a crazy color on my new steel roadie.
I want one in blue. (best picture I could find)

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Old 01-21-16, 10:21 AM
  #143  
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I think I see it now. It's a "standard" size and the rest are oversized. That first picture made it look like they put a flat tube on top. Good looking bike, but I think that top tube sort of kills it for me. Agree that the blue looks great.
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Old 01-21-16, 10:24 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
Woah, is that steel? What is with that top tube?
BTW it appears that the top tube of the Washoe is ovalized, hence the look (not sure why the two photos I posted are discrepant). That combined with the oversized downtube and head tube make for a somewhat unique looking steel frame bike. It comes at a price too, $2350 for the frameset, although for only $800 more you can get it as a full bike with 105, which makes the frameset look overpriced.
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Old 01-21-16, 10:27 AM
  #145  
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I'm interested in how those Lemonds ride....my old Zurich is excellent.
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Old 01-21-16, 10:28 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Jarrett2 View Post
I definitely dig that color. I think I want a crazy color on my new steel roadie.
Wait... what, you want another bike?!?
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Old 01-21-16, 10:31 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by dr_lha View Post
Wait... what, you want another bike?!?
Not today! I mean like 10 years or something. Or 10 weeks, whatever
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Old 01-21-16, 10:50 AM
  #148  
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Volagi Viaje 105. It's my "all-purpose" road bike. Lots of commuting, some group rides, has done a half ironman. Would like to do some light touring on this bike, it is definitely built for long ride comfort.

For better pictures or more info, here's the Volagi page:
Viaje XL | Volagi Cycles
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Old 01-21-16, 11:37 AM
  #149  
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I'm intrigued by that. I didn't see rack mounts, does it have them and I just missed them, or did you have to p-clamp it?
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Old 01-21-16, 11:45 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by alathIN View Post


Volagi Viaje 105. It's my "all-purpose" road bike. Lots of commuting, some group rides, has done a half ironman. Would like to do some light touring on this bike, it is definitely built for long ride comfort.

For better pictures or more info, here's the Volagi page:
Viaje XL | Volagi Cycles
That is certainly a unique looking steel bike. In fact if I saw it on the street, I probably would assume it's aluminum based on the curved tubing.
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