quicktrigger

FWIW, I for one don't consider them to exclude one another. But again, to those that aren't hit, then it's everything. If 600 people/year are hit, and high vis reduces that by 10% to 540, then that is a huge improvement especially to those 60 not hit.

WalksOn2Wheels

Yeah...

quicktrigger

Nerve=hit

You just called it strawman argument, that statistics say that the safety equipment (including high vis clothes) have value in safety. Now you are claiming you made no claims.

Have a good day. Enjoy your black bike.

quicktrigger

Paramedic/first responder etc mean much to you?

See I assume there will be help on the scene. You assume flagrant disregard for others.

So YEAH.

aubiecat

You made it all too easy for us to "assume."

indyfabz

This has turned ridiculous.

quicktrigger

Actually, I did assume appropriate medical help, and didn't think about others assuming something more cynical. It was not contrived in any way. It wasn't until my post about a paramedic etc, that I fully realized the fundamental difference in POV.

StanSeven

There are too many color blind people to matter anyway

joejack951

I'll give you some benefit of the doubt since you seem to be confused about my point. I wasn't calling 'statistics say that the safety equipment (including high vis clothes) have value in safety' a strawman. I was calling your misrepresentation of my posts a strawman. You seem to be hung up on thinking that I assume that hi-vis clothes have no value and I've never said that. Based on your posts, you seem to highly over-estimate the value of hi-vis clothing, though.

I do like my black bike, and my white, silver, blue, and red ones, too. My son's orangey red bike is pretty awesome as well.

WalksOn2Wheels

I love my black bike.

Jadesfire 

Really though, we are a bunch of people riding bicycles in a world that, for the most part, caters to multi-ton vehicles driven by distracted and dangerous drivers. You could be riding down a country lane in hi-vis gear, reflective tape plastered on your bike, with your dork disc on fire and some yahoo will still pull out of a driveway without looking. You/I/We would still be splattered to kingdom come, just in a slightly more varied palette. Good situational awareness and defensive riding skills are necessary, the color of the lycra on your body is not as important.

Hiro11

I also have a healthy fear of driver blindness. I've seen enough idiocy to expect that every driver will be effectively blind.

I have no data, but this makes sense: reflective material is going to be far more visible than bright colors in the dark. To me, if you're using lots of reflective material and bright lights, the color you wear while riding in the dark is irrelevant.

IMO, the single most important factor is lights. I see far too many cyclists riding with no lights or very crappy lights. No serious cyclist should ever ride on the road in anything other than broad daylight without good lights. I have a number of 1,500 lumen headlights and a 2 watt taillights that I paid good money for and maintain carefully.

Also, IMO a group is far more visible than an individual rider. I've gotten to the point that I won't ride alone in the dark on the road. If I were forced to commute alone in the dark, I'd find a path that limited how much I had to ride on the road and I would light myself up like a Christmas tree with both lights and reflective tape all over my wheels.

During the day, I'm uncertain if fluorescent colors actually help you avoid accidents. A driver blind to a guy on a bike in spandex is usually not going to notice what color he's wearing. As such, I also largely avoid riding on the road alone even in broad daylight. I'm lucky enough to have a massive (100 miles +), well maintained MUP network around my house that's rarely crowded. I'll ride on the road in a group a few days a week and alone on the trails a few days a week.

aubiecat

#blackbikesmatter .

PepeM

Loving this thread, keep it up lads.

joejack951

quicktrigger

I am certainly not beyond mis-understanding, Your original comment came across as a snide backhanded crack as high vis being of no value. That was then followed up by other comments that fell in line with that POV, followed by a snide comment that a mistype and being from the south that I'm lacking some how. So it all fit the expected pattern. High vis is no panacea of safety, but neither are helmets, or anything else. But I have a friend that is still with me because he was wearing a helmet (doctors statement that he would have died on the spot had he not been wearing it), and there are stats that show construction workers are less likely to be hit in high vis. Won't stop the drunk or high driver, as happened right in front of my office building (she was high and ran warning signs, barrells, and lights to hit two street workers, one of whom died), but it could just save your life with one of the others.

PepeM

What's the verdict on safety flags?

FLvector

Appears the thread has devolved to A&S and heels are digging deep. ****

This is no longer about wearing a black kit.

WalksOn2Wheels

Required. Plus 7 lights front and rear, safety vest over hi-viz jacket, hi-vis helmet, reflective shoes, helmet mirror, reflective ankle bracelets, bike covered in reflective tape, and a GoPro or equivalent mounted front and rear to catch the inevitable accident you will be in.

aubiecat

I have a
<<<black bike and a
<<<black kit.
Now I know why people don't wave back at me! They can't see me!

WalksOn2Wheels

Guilty.

PepeM

Now I understand why the lads from Giant-Alpecin got hit earlier this year. Oleg had it right all along!

woodcraft

In my area,

a number of those in all-black have sprouted

florescent green or orange shoes.

Those things stand out a mile away.

joejack951

You read a lot more into what I said in my first comment than was actually written. The OP mentioned a rising sun and a rider dressed all in black. I've been in that situation as a motorist coming up on a cyclist who I could swear was in all black but was in fact dressed in bright neon. Maybe I could have been somehow nicer about what I said but when I see cyclists making broad assumptions about situations and then using that baseless assumption to scold cyclists for doing something that's not very different from what they do themselves (replacing a bright jersey with a black one) then I take exception.

I did get snide when I saw this: So let's see if we have some common ground. Do you agree or disagree with woodcraft as a general statement?

quicktrigger

IMHO, all black night riding would be getting toward "death wish", but then that also assumes no reflective strips, lights etc that would help some, but not all of the disadvantages. In fact, I personally refuse to ride at night. Risk is just too high for me. I also am of the option that all black most areas make it more difficult to spot, tilting the odds of being seen to the negative. But at the same time, high vis only helps. It tilts the odds somewhat. Both, "tilt" the odds, as I have said from the beginning. As stated a 10% reduction in accidents from 600/yr means 60 people are safe that would not have been otherwise. I have also made it clear, that whatever I think of the merits of all black, it is simply not something I will be doing.

Do I think it's dumb. Yeap. But I also think smoking and driving 100 MPH are dumb too, and motorcycles are death waiting to happen. However, what you and others ride is not an issue for me as long as your actions don't result in excessive restrictions or harm others. You want a black bike, doesn't matter to me. I simply stated I HATE black bikes, kits etc. then it grew from there.