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Campagnolo... Made in China

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Campagnolo... Made in China

Old 05-04-16, 01:50 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
I tried really hard, but I was still unable to get worked up over this.
Lol. This.
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Old 05-04-16, 05:25 PM
  #52  
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Recently got a box stamped "Hecho en Indonesia"...World has folded in half a few times.
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Old 05-04-16, 05:33 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by kbarch View Post
That may be the goal of business, but it's not the goal of life - not mine, anyhow.

I don't think there's anything "romantic" about the idea of there being more to life than business, but it does strike me that the reduction of our behavior to mere business, or the belief in the infallibility or primacy of "practical" business decisions is naive in its own way.
You should start making bike components. If yours were as good as the Chinese Campy bits I might consider buying from you.
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Old 05-04-16, 06:17 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Kopsis View Post
The notion that people outside the countries that led the industrial revolution can't or won't do good work without constant babysitting from a "westerner" is completely wrong (and insulting, and borderline racist). Speaking as someone who has actually helped stand up an off-shore facility, I can tell you that when the people are treated as first-class employees, the work ethic and pride of workmanship can be every bit as good as the domestic operations. The only thing sometimes lacking (and what "luggage-draggers" like me are there to help provide) is the tribal knowledge and decades of experience that the new operation needs to accumulate before it can be self-sufficient.

When a company stops trying to provide best value to the customer for the sake of maintaining some false facade of "old world craftsmanship", that indicates lack of care.
I think you've misplaced my contempt. I have no contempt for the people who do outsourced work; what I have contempt for is absentee owners and companies who dismiss significant parts of their business as not important enough to have in the same building with them, literally or figuratively, and insist on keeping their names on work for which they've had no real responsibility. Heck, I think it would be great if western manufacturers could produce a legacy of quality bicycles in China, but it won't have happened until we start buying bikes with Chinese names. And I'm sure it will happen eventually. Germans managed to leave a fine legacy of beer brewing in places like China, Mexico, and other places, but it's Tsingtao, Bohemia and the like, not Bitburger (with "brewed in China" in small print).

Meanwhile, I didn't mean to suggest that wheel bearings are all that significant.....

Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
We're talking about bearings from China here. It's probably from a manufacturer that makes really damn good bearings. It's not as if they said "Ok, we need the cheapest possible bearing here because we can't be bothered to make these wheels work." It was probably more like, "Hey, these bearing are as good or better than our current bearings and we can get them for 60% less if we bulk order them from China."
You're quite right, of course. I've just gotten carried away with generalities, trying to defend the notion of corporate identity.
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Old 05-05-16, 07:42 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
THANK YOU.

1954 called. They want their sense of superiority back.
Not only that, but if you even have an entry level understanding of economics you'd understand that it's best to use an area's assets to the rest of the world's advantage. Inherent factors of the country or land ...Being labor rich or resource poor plays into how and why things are setup as they are.

And at the end of the day I think it's funny that big business and CEOs started pocketing huge money, outsourcing their labor, and somehow told the American public to get angry at the Chinese as if it were the commoner in China that had made a power play... Best bait and switch ever, if only I had a small amount of power I'd push strange hate-media agenda for my benefit too. *sigh*
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Old 05-05-16, 07:57 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by topslop1 View Post
So long as we can still buy stuff cheaply from them. Not sure what the benefits of being the super power are as a nation? Lot of euro countries seem to give 0 ****s, and also seem to be doing really well.
Study history much? As their labor force gets more educated the demand for higher pay will increase. Over time another country will have cheaper labor and the market will slide that way. Innovation is what keeps you on top. Where the innovation is, the real money is. China has to subsidize their oil. They will never be a world power in a traditional sense if they do not have the innovation and advancements. In addition, they are completely reliant upon consumers. If a recession hits the consumer nations, they go down. The benefits of being a Super Power are plenty. Safety and knowing that you control your own destiny are just two of those things. Not being reliant on others for protection is a great thing. I won't go further with that but it is quite obvious what occurs. I am not saying that there are not countries in Europe doing well. However, lets not confuse ourselves. There are plenty that are not doing well. If the Super Power that the USA is were to fall, what do you think happens to those that rely on their Military for safety? Many countries have been able to not invest in their military because of the safety provided by being allied with the USA. I do not believe that my country is without flaws. Like every country, we have them. However, it does chafe me when our allies put us down.
Originally Posted by mapeiboy View Post
U.S government will make sure this will never happens even if it means ww3 .
Again, see history. Look at the economic model of China. It can not stay on top without a more diverse economy that has more innovation.
I have no problem buying products from anywhere as long as they are well made. As for the OP, I agree that if you like the wheels than keep the wheels. Where you got them or what country made them is no of any significance.
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Old 05-05-16, 08:23 AM
  #57  
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I've seen a niche market potential for "T.I." products for years now. I believe people will happily pay a premium for products such as bicycles that are truly "Tutto Italiano", a guaranty that each component is manufactured and each product assembled and all shipping packages etc, is sourced and made in Italy.

My guess is people in this niche would be willing to pay 25-50% more than for a similar product/bike, made in third world countries that have few if any labour laws, abjectly low wages, and recklessly pollute their environments. Same for an A.A./All American products/bike.

But, apparently, low price and high profits is king and my niche is an imaginary concept...or is it?

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Old 05-05-16, 08:33 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Shuffleman View Post
Study history much? As their labor force gets more educated the demand for higher pay will increase. Over time another country will have cheaper labor and the market will slide that way. Innovation is what keeps you on top. Where the innovation is, the real money is. China has to subsidize their oil. They will never be a world power in a traditional sense if they do not have the innovation and advancements. In addition, they are completely reliant upon consumers. If a recession hits the consumer nations, they go down. The benefits of being a Super Power are plenty. Safety and knowing that you control your own destiny are just two of those things. Not being reliant on others for protection is a great thing. I won't go further with that but it is quite obvious what occurs. I am not saying that there are not countries in Europe doing well. However, lets not confuse ourselves. There are plenty that are not doing well. If the Super Power that the USA is were to fall, what do you think happens to those that rely on their Military for safety? Many countries have been able to not invest in their military because of the safety provided by being allied with the USA. I do not believe that my country is without flaws. Like every country, we have them. However, it does chafe me when our allies put us down.
I just think the mindset of 'being a superpower' limits us from getting other places up and running that may provide better solutions to some economic or mfg voids. It's almost presented as if X country starts doing well then they're immediately or imminently a threat to our status or ranking. Let China do China and kill it on the mfg stand point. Let us innovate if that's our strong point.

I don't want to see us chase another country, and especially not China from a mfg standpoint, and that's what a lot of folks posting in this thread are hung up on.

In short globalization is a damn good thing, and I am aware that it can be incredibly disruptive to local job markets and certain businesses. I want this process to catalyst and accelerate as quickly as possible so we can get to a higher efficiency market... Then we can figure out how to clothe, feed, and sustain people on a political front afterwards (more optimistically during, but politics are more-so reactionary traditionally).

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Old 05-05-16, 09:22 AM
  #59  
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I've was a Campy fan in the age of downtube shifters, and if money was no object, I'd equip a new bike with Super Record EPS and enjoy the style and snob appeal. But money IS an object, so it's Ultegra for me. They charge a premium for romantic nostalgia for Italian bicycle culture. So while they no doubt save money by outsourcing components, it weakens their brand image.

Globalization changed the industry long ago, anyway. Now we have Chinese bikes with made-up Italian decals, more chinese bikes with old names like Motobecane and Bottechia on them- and people still seem to buy.
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Old 05-05-16, 09:53 AM
  #60  
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I guess the days of legendary Campy bearings and parts are over?

Brev Inter!
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Old 05-05-16, 10:02 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by topslop1 View Post
Not only that, but if you even have an entry level understanding of economics you'd understand that it's best to use an area's assets to the rest of the world's advantage. Inherent factors of the country or land ...Being labor rich or resource poor plays into how and why things are setup as they are.

And at the end of the day I think it's funny that big business and CEOs started pocketing huge money, outsourcing their labor, and somehow told the American public to get angry at the Chinese as if it were the commoner in China that had made a power play... Best bait and switch ever, if only I had a small amount of power I'd push strange hate-media agenda for my benefit too. *sigh*
Corporate CEOs didn't tell the American public anything; the CEOs don't care what people think.

Those of us who do understand economics know that the reason people are angry at the Chinese is their unfair import policies. It's easy to spend money there on their labor but try actually selling a product over there...
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Old 05-05-16, 11:16 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by rmfnla View Post
Corporate CEOs didn't tell the American public anything; the CEOs don't care what people think.

Those of us who do understand economics know that the reason people are angry at the Chinese is their unfair import policies. It's easy to spend money there on their labor but try actually selling a product over there...
So sorry, major media outlets have spun the story, while indifference has been exercised by the CEOs. I'd be more than willing to argue that major companies have grave influence over media and public perception but you might call me a conspiracy theorist so I won't touch it. I'll also bet you that 9 out of 10 people on the street that are upset at China manufacturing everything have no idea what their import policy is.
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Old 05-05-16, 11:42 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
We have a significant disconnect here. You are talking about your own life, while I am talking about a business. The topic was Campagnolo and whether where its products are made matters. Suggesting that coming from Italy imbues a product with intangible value is quite literally romantic. There may be more to your life than business, but business is everything to Campagnolo. I guess that is because they are in fact a business. If they forget that, you will have more to grieve than where they have started sourcing their goods. You will find them just plain gone.
The value of intangible assets, such as goodwill and brand recognition, are regularly accounted for by businesses.
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Old 05-05-16, 12:17 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by rjones28 View Post
The value of intangible assets, such as goodwill and brand recognition, are regularly accounted for by businesses.
Totally agree. I never suggested that folks don't believe the Italian mystique or that companies shouldn't cater to the belief. I only said it is BS. What that says about the folks who believe it...no comment.
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Old 05-05-16, 08:41 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by topslop1 View Post
Not only that, but if you even have an entry level understanding of economics you'd understand that it's best to use an area's assets to the rest of the world's advantage. Inherent factors of the country or land ...Being labor rich or resource poor plays into how and why things are setup as they are.
Exactly. For example, it is not cost effective to dispose of electronics waste in the US. Far, far too labor intensive to pay US workers. It makes more sense to ship this electronics waste to an area where their "assets" are better equipped to do this.

In this case, the "area" is India, and their "assets" are children. If the US truly cared about being competitive on a global scale, we'd dump those archaic prohibitions on child labor, and get rid of stupid regulations regarding "worker safety".

But, for the time being, we are stuck with these antibusiness laws, and thus we must bow to the wisdom of the global marketplace. It truly is a thing of beauty.

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Old 05-05-16, 08:51 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by loky1179 View Post
Exactly. For example, it is not cost effective to dispose of electronics waste in the US. Far, far too labor intensive to pay US workers. It makes more sense to ship this electronics waste to an area where their "assets" are better equipped to do this.

In this case, the "area" is India, and their "assets" are children. If the US truly cared about being competitive on a global scale, we'd dump those archaic prohibitions on child labor, and get rid of stupid regulations regarding "worker safety".

But, for the time being, we are stuck with these antibusiness laws, and thus we must bow to the wisdom of the global marketplace. It truly is a thing of beauty.

Not just for the time being. Forever. There is no going back on the civilizing regulations that protect all of us. Get over it.
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Old 05-05-16, 08:54 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by loky1179 View Post
Exactly. For example, it is not cost effective to dispose of electronics waste in the US. Far, far too labor intensive to pay US workers. It makes more sense to ship this electronics waste to an area where their "assets" are better equipped to do this.

In this case, the "area" is India, and their "assets" are children. If the US truly cared about being competitive on a global scale, we'd dump those archaic prohibitions on child labor, and get rid of stupid regulations regarding "worker safety".

But, for the time being, we are stuck with these antibusiness laws, and thus we must bow to the wisdom of the global marketplace. It truly is a thing of beauty.

President Trump will fix all of that.

/s
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Old 05-05-16, 08:56 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by oldnslow2 View Post
President Trump will fix all of that.

/s
He'd better hope that all of his hair products are produced domestically.
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Old 05-06-16, 06:51 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by loky1179 View Post
Exactly. For example, it is not cost effective to dispose of electronics waste in the US. Far, far too labor intensive to pay US workers. It makes more sense to ship this electronics waste to an area where their "assets" are better equipped to do this.

In this case, the "area" is India, and their "assets" are children. If the US truly cared about being competitive on a global scale, we'd dump those archaic prohibitions on child labor, and get rid of stupid regulations regarding "worker safety".

But, for the time being, we are stuck with these antibusiness laws, and thus we must bow to the wisdom of the global marketplace. It truly is a thing of beauty.

I haven't done full research or study into this but I'm starting to get the hunch that for a large middle class to be sustainable in a capitalist setting there has to be some form of slave-wage work being done. I think the hard, crappy truth is that for us (as it's setup now) to live as well as we do, we are legitimately tied to exploiting the world's poor. That's how capitalism works.. and that's my incredible distaste with it. By luck of the draw I am born in America where my lower end quality of life is padded and insured to be at least X better than what you're seeing here.

Even at a middle rung I am not given a 'fair deal': I generate ~$300k/yr in profits and my take home is $50k/yr. Because I needed an education to even be considered for the job that I have now I am looking at ~19 years of debt payment. Quickly approaching 30 years of age; minimal savings, no home, and a '19 year lease on an invisible Ford Mustang GT'.

If you're poor, prepare to be taxed for it. Interest of any kind of any loan of money is 'taxation for being poor'. Interest received on any loan of any kind is the spoils.

It's simply interesting to me that the most coveted jobs and highest paying jobs are those that are non value added (V.C., I-banking). Simply put in what we've got now: I get some money for having some money, I get more money by having more money, I get most money by having most money.

And to add here: The rich do not benefit the economy and I'd argue benefit society any longer; and that's why there has been a recent call by some rich figure heads to tax the rich, and tax them more. Some of these figure heads ARE the rich as well.

By pooling X dollars out in a vacuum you get personally rewarded, yet do not feed back into the economy (and if you argue that you loan your money to the less wealthy I've already covered that); e.g. the rich do not buy 500 pairs of blue jeans, they buy, 5 pairs. There's a ted talk that uses this example that's pretty interesting.

I expect these responses:
1. you didn't have to get an education
2. work harder
3. just because i did pretty well (financially) doesn't mean you need to tear the system down because (you didn't).
4. Capitalism is best-est
5. Socialism is worstest
6. Open up your own business if you want to make any money
7. Someone offering their take on profit making that is time stamped to the 1980's.

Finally: I guarantee that a similar hand to the one in the feature picture has touched each and every one of the frames that we ride our bicycles on here sans a $4500 titanium domestic build.

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Old 05-06-16, 08:02 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by topslop1 View Post
I haven't done full research or study into this but I'm starting to get the hunch that for a large middle class to be sustainable in a capitalist setting there has to be some form of slave-wage work being done. I think the hard, crappy truth is that for us (as it's setup now) to live as well as we do, we are legitimately tied to exploiting the world's poor. That's how capitalism works.. and that's my incredible distaste with it. By luck of the draw I am born in America where my lower end quality of life is padded and insured to be at least X better than what you're seeing here.

Even at a middle rung I am not given a 'fair deal': I generate ~$300k/yr in profits and my take home is $50k/yr. Because I needed an education to even be considered for the job that I have now I am looking at ~19 years of debt payment. Quickly approaching 30 years of age; minimal savings, no home, and a '19 year lease on an invisible Ford Mustang GT'.

If you're poor, prepare to be taxed for it. Interest of any kind of any loan of money is 'taxation for being poor'. Interest received on any loan of any kind is the spoils.

It's simply interesting to me that the most coveted jobs and highest paying jobs are those that are non value added (V.C., I-banking). Simply put in what we've got now: I get some money for having some money, I get more money by having more money, I get most money by having most money.

And to add here: The rich do not benefit the economy and I'd argue benefit society any longer; and that's why there has been a recent call by some rich figure heads to tax the rich, and tax them more. Some of these figure heads ARE the rich as well.

By pooling X dollars out in a vacuum you get personally rewarded, yet do not feed back into the economy (and if you argue that you loan your money to the less wealthy I've already covered that); e.g. the rich do not buy 500 pairs of blue jeans, they buy, 5 pairs. There's a ted talk that uses this example that's pretty interesting.

I expect these responses:
1. you didn't have to get an education
2. work harder
3. just because i did pretty well (financially) doesn't mean you need to tear the system down because (you didn't).
4. Capitalism is best-est
5. Socialism is worstest
6. Open up your own business if you want to make any money
7. Someone offering their take on profit making that is time stamped to the 1980's.

Finally: I guarantee that a similar hand to the one in the feature picture has touched each and every one of the frames that we ride our bicycles on here sans a $4500 titanium domestic build.
There are economic systems that are ethically and morally pleasing, and then there are economic systems that work. We happen to have about as optimized a blend of the two that has ever existed.

I consider the 19 year payout of your education costs to be one of the greatest bargains imaginable. Basically peanuts to enable you to participate fully in the capitalist economy at any level your perceived performance level can carry you to. We used to call it paying our dues.

When you bemoan your small reward for a much larger impact on a business that employs you, you are totally ignoring the value of capital investment to the business. That has to be rewarded too. Which leads to a corollary: the best way for most folks to get rich is not by salary, but by investment...providing that same capital I was just referring to. Sure it is slow at first with small investment increments, but the growth can be startling.

In case you are wondering, I am actually a liberal.
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No matter where I go, here I am...

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Old 05-06-16, 08:35 AM
  #71  
WalksOn2Wheels
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
There are economic systems that are ethically and morally pleasing, and then there are economic systems that work. We happen to have about as optimized a blend of the two that has ever existed.

I consider the 19 year payout of your education costs to be one of the greatest bargains imaginable. Basically peanuts to enable you to participate fully in the capitalist economy at any level your perceived performance level can carry you to. We used to call it paying our dues.

When you bemoan your small reward for a much larger impact on a business that employs you, you are totally ignoring the value of capital investment to the business. That has to be rewarded too. Which leads to a corollary: the best way for most folks to get rich is not by salary, but by investment...providing that same capital I was just referring to. Sure it is slow at first with small investment increments, but the growth can be startling.

In case you are wondering, I am actually a liberal.
How much did your college education cost, Robert?

EDIT: I agree with you on most of your points, but the question stands.
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Old 05-06-16, 08:47 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
Amateur bike racing is just a fun thing, as far as I know, there's no penalty for not winning.
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Old 05-06-16, 08:48 AM
  #73  
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While a millenial bemoans his having a college education, a job, a car, is a "lower end quality of life" and not a "fair deal", let's not forget that Campagnolo bicycle parts are a luxury good- premium priced for the recreation market. Nobody who cares about this topic is worried about buying groceries, we just don't want to pay too much for our toys.
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Old 05-06-16, 09:05 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
How much did your college education cost, Robert?
Pretty much. Only the cost of cigarettes has out-paced the cost of college tuition in the last few decades.
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Old 05-06-16, 09:11 AM
  #75  
jtaylor996
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
How much did your college education cost, Robert?

EDIT: I agree with you on most of your points, but the question stands.
I don't know about robert, but me and my wife lived at home for college and MADE net money from scholarships in FL. We had enough for a down payment on our first house when we graduated. We graduated in 2002(me, I graduated HS in '99)/2003(wife).

Unfortunately, I'm fairly certain that's not going to be the case for our kids

That just shows you haw FAST college tuition has gotten out of hand.
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