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Stan's not sealing.. suggestions?

Old 07-13-16, 09:13 PM
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HazeT
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Stan's not sealing.. suggestions?

I've been dealing with a puncture in my tires for too long... the tire is < 200 miles out so I don't want to replace, and I wouldn't expect to have to do some internal repair on it either giving the hole is pretty small.
For some reason the sealant is just not doing it, I've tried twice already. "took of tire and old sealant, replaced with new" and it is still not sealing.


Any sugestions? after I put the new sealant and did all the prep work recommended, I put only 40psi and left the tire with the whole on the bottom to make sure it would have sealant there.
still, as soon as I inflated it to 100 PSI about 2 hours later it started leaking all the sealant, and by the amount of sealant there you can guess that it leaked for a while.
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Old 07-13-16, 09:22 PM
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Is that a tubeless setup, or are you adding sealant to a tube?
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Old 07-13-16, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Is that a tubeless setup, or are you adding sealant to a tube?
tubeless, schwalbe one tubeless.
I tried to pour another 2oz, inflated to 60 psi and went on a 30 mins roller session, no hissing. bumped again to 90 and went for another 30s... of course it started leaking and throwing sealant away again
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Old 07-14-16, 12:51 AM
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If it is big enough gash... you might want to patch it up from inside. That's what I do for anything that looks around 1/4" long, etc even if it seals up. I use Orange Seal myself btw.
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Old 07-14-16, 04:51 AM
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Yeah, it must be a more serious gash than you think; the One is fairly robust for a racing tire, but does not have a lot of material in it. I eat one up in about 1.2k miles at my 225lbs weight.

You can try a sealant with particulate, like Bontrager or Orange Seal, and see if that works, or patch internally as suggested earlier. I guess it depends how much you want to futz with it.
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Old 07-14-16, 05:01 AM
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Deflate to ~20 psi or so. Spread some superglue on the hole and around the hole from the outside. Put a self adhesive tube patch on the hole from the outside. Make sure there is sealant in the tire, inflate and wait.
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Old 07-14-16, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by HazeT View Post
I've been dealing with a puncture in my tires for too long... the tire is < 200 miles out so I don't want to replace, and I wouldn't expect to have to do some internal repair on it either giving the hole is pretty small.
Any sugestions? after I put the new sealant and did all the prep work recommended, I put only 40psi and left the tire with the whole on the bottom to make sure it would have sealant there.
still, as soon as I inflated it to 100 PSI about 2 hours later it started leaking all the sealant, and by the amount of sealant there you can guess that it leaked for a while.
It seems the hole is just too big for the sealant to do its job or there may be some glass or other debris in there hindering the sealants ability to work which will require a patch from the inside. Simply dismount the tire, rinse with water, dry, and install a patch. Done!

FYI, the best way for sealant to work is fully inflated and spinning. One might think that a pool of sealant on the bottom and low air pressure would be the right way to do it but its not. The fastest way to seal a tubeless puncture is fully inflated and either spinning or riding depending on the rate in which its leaking down. Typically, sealant will stay in liquid form for several months inside the tire so pooling it up will never allow it to dry, especially sitting in a puddle of wet sealant, you need the outside air to make contact with the leak for it to harden.

As the wheel spins, the sealant will slosh around inside the wheel and some will follow the escaping air right through the leak and begin to dry, that's when it starts doing its job. Think of it like paint, if you take a can of spray paint and put a fine mist on any surface it will dry almost immediately, then spray in the same spot for 20 seconds to build up the paint until its nice and runny, now you're waiting an hour for it to dry. In your case, pooling it up would take probably 6 months to dry.

Last edited by dvdslw; 07-14-16 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 07-14-16, 08:43 AM
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Thanks for all the feedback, I will go for the patching route. I had already dismounted the tire on the weekend and couldn't see any cuts inside hence why I assumed it was small enough and continued to try to seal without patching.
Any reason it has to be a tubeless patch instead of the standard tube repair patch?
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Old 07-14-16, 10:14 AM
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Stan's not sealing.. suggestions?

Use tubes the way God intended you to...
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Old 07-14-16, 10:25 AM
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bottle shook well? need lots of particulate to fill the gap
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Old 07-14-16, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by HazeT View Post
Thanks for all the feedback, I will go for the patching route. I had already dismounted the tire on the weekend and couldn't see any cuts inside hence why I assumed it was small enough and continued to try to seal without patching.
Any reason it has to be a tubeless patch instead of the standard tube repair patch?
I just used a standard tube patch.
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Old 07-14-16, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rmfnla View Post
Stan's not sealing.. suggestions?

Use tubes the way God intended you to...
Are you still running inner tubes in your car too?
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Old 07-14-16, 01:45 PM
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I use Orange Seal (OS) on the road, Stan's on the MTB. Maybe with higher pressures, OS works better. I did have a puncture while riding and OS sealed it but only after I spun the puncture to the bottom and let it sit. It was hissing and spewing sealant before that but pretty instantly sealed when I spun it to the bottom and left it there. I think I will continue with Orange Seal on the road, and Stan's on the MTB.
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Old 07-15-16, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dvdslw View Post
Are you still running inner tubes in your car too?
My car doesn't require sealant for the tires to hold air...
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Old 07-15-16, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Chandne View Post
I use Orange Seal (OS) on the road, Stan's on the MTB. Maybe with higher pressures, OS works better. I did have a puncture while riding and OS sealed it but only after I spun the puncture to the bottom and let it sit. It was hissing and spewing sealant before that but pretty instantly sealed when I spun it to the bottom and left it there. I think I will continue with Orange Seal on the road, and Stan's on the MTB.
I just bought a bottle of orange seal and will give a try. slowtwitch had an essay on sealants and the Botrager TLR had impressive results, much better than stan's.
I saw that Stan's now make a "race version" of it, that you can't even use the injector or inject through the valve because it will clog it immediately, but they say it will seal much larger holes.
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Old 07-15-16, 11:19 AM
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Will have to look into the Stan's Race Sealant. That may be useful on the MTB for sure. The one time I have flatted completely is when I tore a tire sidewall (thinner race tire) in 2007 or so, on the edge of a pointed rock. I "patched" it with an empty GU gel pack and threw a tube in in. The gel pack went between the tire hole and tube, to prevent the tube from bulging out. It worked fine for the 7-8 miles back to the car. I think road tires are in that stage that MTB tires went through. In a couple of years the rims and tires will be better mated to work much better, like in the MTB world.

Cars on mostly asphalt don't need sealant because the tires are heavy and thick enough to avoid frequent punctures, but a few companies do make auto tire sealant.
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Old 07-15-16, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by rmfnla View Post
My car doesn't require sealant for the tires to hold air...
Road tubeless doesn't require sealant to hold air, either. Some tires, like Schwalbe Pro One need sealant to prevent leakdown, but others, like Schwalbe One, do not. This presumes a tubeless ready (TLR) rim, of course; trying to convert a standard clincher may present sealing problems at the bead.
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Old 07-15-16, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Road tubeless doesn't require sealant to hold air, either. Some tires, like Schwalbe Pro One need sealant to prevent leakdown, but others, like Schwalbe One, do not. This presumes a tubeless ready (TLR) rim, of course; trying to convert a standard clincher may present sealing problems at the bead.
If by leakdown you mean normal permeation of air out of the tire but not through an actual hole or at the bead, I have to disagree. I have explained this already several times. Sealant is essentially incapable of slowing normal air loss through an undamaged tire. It can seal a hole or a gap between the bead and the rim, but it can't much slow air loss through the solid inner surface and body of the tire. The permeability of the rubber in sealant is just too high for it to improve on the permeability of the tire carcass. Compared to a hole or a gap at the bead, yes, of course a lump of dried sealant rubber will slow down air loss. But compared to the solid inner surface of the tire, the sealant is essentially useless for holding air in the tire.

Why is this the case? First the rubber dispersed in the sealant is a very permeable type, the same as in latex tubes. If you go to this website, you will see the formula for Stan's sealant specifying the rubber is natural latex, a very permeable rubber

https://www.notubes.com/literature/No...5_9_2012-1.pdf

Second the rubber is very dilute in the sealant, so its natural low impermeability is further reduced by the dilution factor. Finally the sealant makes a very thin film over the entire inner surface of the tire as it rolls. That thin film isn't very resistant to air loss because of how thin it is. Think of how a thin, light tube loses air faster than a thick one made from the same rubber. And when the bike is sitting stationary in your garage, most of the inner surface of the tire isn't even covered by sealant, so it isn't protected at all.

If you meant something else by leakdown, my apologies. But still, what I have said is good for folks running tubeless tires to know.
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Old 07-15-16, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
If by leakdown you mean normal permeation of air out of the tire but not through an actual hole or at the bead, I have to disagree. I have explained this already several times. Sealant is essentially incapable of slowing normal air loss through an undamaged tire.

If you meant something else by leakdown, my apologies. But still, what I have said is good for folks running tubeless tires to know.
You're sort of correct. Schwalbe Tubeless Easy tires don't have butyl liner, and as a result are HIGHLY permeable to air. This means that the air leaks out in a matter of an hour or so. An initial application of sealant is required to make the tires truly air-tight. The sealant fills in the microscopic holes and bonds to the tire making an air-tight layer.

The construction is basically a standard clincher with a road tubeless bead.

The older Schwalbe One used a butyl liner and was ~100g heavier than the new Pro One. The newer design is a replaces both the clincher and tubeless One, into a single model.
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Old 07-15-16, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
You're sort of correct. Schwalbe Tubeless Easy tires don't have butyl liner, and as a result are HIGHLY permeable to air. This means that the air leaks out in a matter of an hour or so. An initial application of sealant is required to make the tires truly air-tight. The sealant fills in the microscopic holes and bonds to the tire making an air-tight layer.

The construction is basically a standard clincher with a road tubeless bead.

The older Schwalbe One used a butyl liner and was ~100g heavier than the new Pro One. The newer design is a replaces both the clincher and tubeless One, into a single model.
That is what I suspected about the way the tires were lightened. But even so, the pores are only being filled with natural rubber which isn't a very good barrier as we all know. And the space between the pores, the solid rubber, doesn't benefit from the sealant treatment at all. Also the amount of latex filling the pores must be extremely small. I can't imagine the overall effect being very significant. Have you actually observed that degree of leakdown without sealant? Have you ever painted sealant on only the bead to see if that worked just as well as filling the tire with sealant? Something is really fishy here.

By the way, I calculated that the layer of sealant when evenly distributed is about 0.6 mm thick. That is similar to some inner tubes. But then you have to cut that value by 3/4 due to the dilute content of the rubber in the sealant. So sealant in a tire won't come anywhere close to even a latex tube for holding in air.
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Old 07-15-16, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
That is what I suspected about the way the tires were lightened. But even so, the pores are only being filled with natural rubber which isn't a very good barrier as we all know. And the space between the pores, the solid rubber, doesn't benefit from the sealant treatment at all.

So sealant in a tire won't come anywhere close to even a latex tube for holding in air.
I haven't personally tried the Pro One, but I have run normal clinchers as tubeless MTB tires. The leakdown rate is dramatic without sealant, enough that it won't hold air for more than 5 minutes. With sealant, it's like tubed tire. When the sidewalls are sealing you can actually see the sealant weeping through.

I think part your confusion stems from how sealant works. The sealant only needs to fill the microscopic voids, which make up a very small fraction of the tire. Imagine that the tire is perfectly sealed except for some several small holes. The sealant only dries out where it's exposed to external air. For example, the tire could be 99.9% filled, which would lead to a dramatic leak rate (similar to a nail hole), but it only takes a small amount of latex to plug those holes.

Those small holes probably do have a leak rate comparable to a latex BUT they make up such a small fraction of the tires surface area that their higher leak rate doesn't matter.
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Old 07-15-16, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
I haven't personally tried the Pro One, but I have run normal clinchers as tubeless MTB tires. The leakdown rate is dramatic without sealant, enough that it won't hold air for more than 5 minutes. With sealant, it's like tubed tire. When the sidewalls are sealing you can actually see the sealant weeping through.

I think part your confusion stems from how sealant works. The sealant only needs to fill the microscopic voids, which make up a very small fraction of the tire. Imagine that the tire is perfectly sealed except for some several small holes. The sealant only dries out where it's exposed to external air. For example, the tire could be 99.9% filled, which would lead to a dramatic leak rate (similar to a nail hole), but it only takes a small amount of latex to plug those holes.

Those small holes probably do have a leak rate comparable to a latex BUT they make up such a small fraction of the tires surface area that their higher leak rate doesn't matter.
Weeping theough where? The overall surface of the tires or the bead area.
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Old 07-15-16, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
Weeping theough where? The overall surface of the tires or the bead area.
The side walls where the rubber is the thinnest. Typically ~2mm above the sidewall/tire interface. It's definitely not at the bead, because there's clean rubber visible just above the rim sidewall.
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Old 07-15-16, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
The side walls where the rubber is the thinnest. Typically ~2mm above the sidewall/tire interface. It's definitely not at the bead, because there's clean rubber visible just above the rim sidewall.
Okay. I don't doubt you. I have to say it makes no sense to me. Why would you put a tire on the market for tubeless that can't hold air? Surely such a pretreatment with some sealant emulsion could be painted on at the factory for a few gram penalty.
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Old 07-15-16, 06:59 PM
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My schwalbe ones wouldn't hold air more than a couple hours until I got sealant into them. I never intended them to run w/o sealant it's just the stuff was slow coming from amazon so I did a few commutes where I had to pump up before each leg. Don't know why. There was no detectable hiss, and they didn't blow off the rim.

ps-> now that I HAVE had one blow off the rim I will never ride tubeless again unless it can hold pressure for 12+ hours.
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