SethAZ 

I'd care too, but it's not clear to me that exceeding the width of the rim by 1mm per side will cause the airflow to separate. So long as the airflow remains laminar around the tire, across the junction from the tire to the rim, and then following the gentle curve of the rim around to the back you pretty much got the benefit.

Yeah I'd have my own reservations about the 32mm Compass on these rims, but it would be the bead issue you pointed out rather than the airflow one.

The front rim diameter is 31mm. I'd be surprised if someone suddenly lost the aero benefits of these rims going with the tubeless compatible 35mm Compass tire. That's just 2mm wider than the rim on each side, and if the transition is gentle enough I highly doubt at typical riding speeds you'd see the flow separate coming around that tire. I'm no aerodynamic engineer so I could be wrong.

Seattle Forrest

For what it's worth, a set of nominal 28 mm Schwalbe Pro Ones measure 33.6 mm on these rims. (As reported by other owners, I don't have calipers myself.)

Enve recommends 28 mm tires for the clincher version and 30 mm for the tubular version of these rims.

Seattle Forrest

And that's plenty enough for me, and should be for anybody else. Why spend so much money and then run tires that the maker says not to use? I don't want to lose my teeth, and I don't want to damage my rims.

HTupolev

Enve thinks it matters:

https://cyclingtips.com/2016/11/the-new-normal-the-thinking-behind-wide-road-wheels/

Silca claims that going even veerrry slightly too wide for the wheel (i.e. due to PSI differences) can cost a few watts in crosswinds:

https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/part-5-tire-pressure-and-aerodynamics

SethAZ 

Seattle Forrest, I'm curious, what tires are you running on yours?

I'm using the 32mm Compass tires on my AeroClyde wheels, but my rims have the traditional bead hook so there's no problem. I was surprised to see these ENVEs come out without the traditional bead hook. I'd only seen that in MTB tires running at much lower pressures.

SethAZ 

The cyclingtips link isn't working, but the Silca one did. That was interesting, and thanks for linking it!

While that one specifically was talking about cross wind effects, it's very interesting in explaining why some of the modern shapes are what they are. For low angle winds it's still not clear to me that the 105 rule would be important, so the cross wind scenario would be a subset of the overall problem, not the whole problem. You can see some evidence of this when you look at the chart of the worn vs. unworn tire measurements, where the flat spot only caused a dramatic separation in performance between the two tires at crosswind angles greater than ten degrees.

It's entirely possible that in low wind situations the forward motion of the bike at high speed, and the change in relative angle of the air incoming to the tires, means that this really is a corner case, and not representative of the widest situations encountered during rides. Given the relationship with tire width, lower pressure, etc. on rider comfort and lower suspension losses, I'm just not sure where all the benefits and tradeoffs net out.

In my own specific case, given my AeroClyde wheels with a 28mm wide rim, it would be a tradeoff between marginal losses in high crosswinds due to the tire exceeding the rim width by 4mm, and the marginal gains in lower suspension losses incurred by riding that 32mm tire at lower pressures than I'd have to ride a 28mm tire in all riding conditions on imperfect road surfaces. I don't know where the math all comes out, but I suspect I'm still better off with the wider tire for my riding, my weight, and the roads I ride on.

The real question for me is whether a 28mm wide 46mm deep carbon rim like the ones I just built my wheelset with actually offer a substantial performance benefit over the same 32mm tires riding on 24mm wide, 25mm deep aluminum rims which these new wheels replace.

Anyhow, thanks for that article. It was interesting, and I definitely learned something from it, which I appreciate.

Seattle Forrest

You're confused. I was saying that Enve's recommendation is a good reason not to use non-tubeless tires, not that it's a good reason to only run 28s. Running wider tires will only slow you down and only while you have those tires mounted, you can change them whenever you like; running tires that don't attach to the rims properly could cause you to crash.

Seattle Forrest

IRC Formula Pro Tubeless, at 28 mm (nominal, they measure somewhere around 32 mm on these rims).

I ran Pro Ones at 28 mm (again, nominal) but got too many sidewall cuts and switched.

Seattle Forrest

@TruthBomb

Enve specifically says not to use non-tubeless tires with these rims:

You can call them and talk about it if you like.

You can run any tire you choose, but after what I spent on mine, I'm also not going to do something the manufacturer specifically says not to. I consider that basic common sense.

I'm not making this stuff up. I did some research about the product before I spent $3,000 on it. I know what I'm talking about.

You seem to want to argue about this, and that's not what I'm here for.

SethAZ 

It's not a direct link because it's a dynamic page popup thingy, but go to this link. Click on the Technology link, and then click on the "Road Tubeless By Design" pane. It contains the following verbiage:

"Drawing on our experience designing and making the world’s best mountain bike rims, the SES 4.5 AR Disc features a hookless bead profile and tire-bed bead seat lock. This design prevents air loss from impacts or aggressive cornering loads, allows for an exacting tire and rim interface, improves air flow from tire to rim and saves weight. Non-tubeless clincher tires are not recommended but tubeless tires can still be used with tubes."

Then further down it says: "Can be used with inner tubes, in tubeless tires only"

To be fair, it's not just he who is assuming that. In this article Jan Heine discusses some differences between tubeless and tires running with tubes in terms of their ability to hold onto a bead hook, the consequences of bead stretching, etc. While it doesn't directly relate to a non-hooked mount, it takes little imagination to understand that if a typical non-tubeless tire's bead is looser and potentially stretchier there may be issues with how well it will stay put in a non-hooked well. I'm still looking for the definitive article that directly discusses the difficulties of using non-tubeless tires in such a non-hooked tire well, but the concepts I have seen so far make ENVE's recommendation against using non-tubeless ready tires in their non-hooked tire well seem credible, and worth abiding by.

SethAZ 

I've done things that I've gotten away with in the past, like taking non-tubeless ready MTB rims and running them tubeless after simply resealing the spoke holes with Stans yellow tape. The more I read about bead hooks, tire bead shapes, what differentiates tubeless ready from non-tubeless rims and tires, etc. the less inclined I am to keep doing things like this just because I got away with it in the past.

It's interesting that the guy in the pic you showed "got away" with running a non-tubeless GP4KIIs tire in these ENVE 4.5 AR rims. This was apparently his first 95km on brand new tires. He may keep getting away with it, or he may not. As he racks up more kilometerage on that bike the beads may stretch out a little and he may not get away with it anymore.

If a guy can afford $3k for a set of wheels, I think he should be able to afford to follow the manufacturers recommendations re: tire selection.

Not even considering trail riding, even on the road I'm loving the 32mm tires, and will definitely keep pushing the size up with each new set to see where the performance/comfort levels off and changes direction.

Notwithstanding that article showing worse cross-wind performance with tires exceeding that 105% rule, I'd suspect that most people would still find their overall performance better on a wider tire like the 32mm even though it breaks the 105% rule. Everything's always a tradeoff, and the question comes down to the balance of marginal gains vs. marginal losses and what nets out of it all.

Seattle Forrest

You seem really angry for some reason.

Ald1 

Okay I guess I started this Sh** storm asking about using Compass tires on the Enve 4.5's. After much research (I think wheelbuilder has the warning also about tubeless only too) I agree with Seattle and Seth and will be going with the 4.5 and initially the Pro ones on my Domane build. I stick to paved roads but have a few hard packed sand roads in Jersey I'd like to explore and the 28's might handle those.
As a father of a scientist and engineer and as a decade long contractor on large projects who pays a lot of $$$ for stamped engineering drawings, I've grown weary of electrician, carpenters that tell me we don't have to do it that way and this will work etc. I feel it's prudent to always follow manufacturers/engineers specs if not for obvious safety but just common sense and liability issues .
Many things "might" work. What happens when they don't going 40 MPH down a windy road? Who do you call than if your still around?

Seattle Forrest

Enve has a new G series of gravel wheels now.

For my purposes, and probably for most people in here, the 4.5 ARs are preferable.

https://enve.com/lp/g-series/
https://enve.com/products/g23/

chris_nwb

Has anyone tried Hutchinson Sector 32mm on the 4.5 AR? How wide did it end up?

It's on Enve's recommended list along with the Sector 28mm. Looking for the widest slicks which are still "aero" with the rim. According to reviews of the tires, they run true to size--but of course 4.5 AR's internal width is wider.

If you've used Sector 28mm, I'd like to hear your feedback too.

HNg1970

I have had the AR for about 8 months. Been on Schwalbe 28mm. I would also love to year more options one the tires.
It was frustrating going through the Chris King break-in mileage. Now I love these wheels. Don't even put on my Zipp anymore.
Don't mean to hi-jack the thread. But what do you use the polish them so at least they look newer than what I have put them through?

Seattle Forrest

I haven't tried any of the Hutchinson tires. I've heard their ride quality isn't on par with Pro Ones etc.

bruce19

Me too. Then I went to Competitive Cyclist and saw the $3500 price tag. OMG!!

Dean V

I got a set of these wheels second hand earlier this week.
They have replaced the Metron 40 wheel set on my Domane Sl6.
Running Schwalbe S-One 30mm tyres which measure at 33mm mounted.
Like the wheels so far.
Industry Nine hubs and the freewheel sounds very much like a Chis King.

WhyFi

Lol - did that TruthBomb joker really delete every single one of his posts?

Cni2i

WhyFi

^^^ That's a pretty sweet lookin' ride.

Cni2i

Thank you WhyFi!