Haruhiism

Bought some Fizik R5B shoes from an online, reputable US retailer a few days ago. They came in today and the shoes now say they are made in China. I believe the 2015 model was still made in Italy.

So anyway, how many steps above the Fizik hierarchy does one need to up to in order to get "handmade in Italy" shoes? Is it just the $400 R1B now?

LGHT

wow I got some r3B's and there where made in italy, but they are a couple of years old.

K.Katso

Was there a noticable decrease in quality?

look566 rider

Just bought some R5s from Performance. Made in China. Finish quality is better than I have seen on many shoes, bike or otherwise.

Haruhiism

I actually haven't taken them for a ride yet until tomorrow morning. I have a pair of 2015 R5B shoes in my possession and they differ a bit, but it seems to be aesthetically for the most part. I did notice that the Boa knob in the Chinese pair releases with ease in comparison. Whether that's good or bad while riding I'll have to see tomorrow--could also just be this particular pair.

I guess what bothers me is that despite the change in country of manufacture, you're still paying the same price as if they were made in Italy.

FXjohn

Indeed

Haruhiism

You think so? On mine, what is supposed to be the embossed part that says fizik at the front of the shoe seems like a sticker on the Chinese pair.

joejack951

It isn't uncommon for a new product to be produced closer to 'home' and then production moved to a cheaper location after the kinks have been worked out. It could be that due to being made in Italy Fizik was making very slim margins (or even losing money) during that startup period. Now that they are using cheaper labor, the product can actually make them some money.

Just speculating, of course, but I've BTDT so there's some basis for it.

Bike Gremlin

Chinese workers work just as well as Italian.
Probably, while it was made in Italy, it was also made by foreign workers there.

Factory line job is a boring, tedious job. Usually goes down to quality of materials used and quality control. You can make a very good product in China if you want to. It would make you less profit, but you can make it. Just like you can make a crappy one in Italy.

As far as pricing goes - capitalism is about buying cheap, selling expensive. Every company does it's best to earn as much as possible. Also, it is good if a product doesn't last too long. Companies do their best to ensure that.

Italian worker gets about 1500 euros minimal wage + taxes and social benefits, while each Chinese worker gets at least a 1000 euros less with similar reduction in other fees as well. They both can work equally well, or bad, depending on other factors like organization and quality control.

K.Katso

and their company shareholders just love it.

look566 rider

Hmmm... Mine is embossed.

robertorolfo

While this is a ridiculous generalization, and it really shouldn't be treated as a serious statement, we are talking about footwear here. FFS...

cthenn

What's wrong with it? Are you implying Italian workers are, in fact, superior in some way to Chinese workers? If we're talking pay scale, and working conditions, I'm sure there is a difference in many cases, but I think what you are saying is not a serious statement either.

cthenn

I love these quasi-prejudiced statements that people make about stuff that's made in China.

TrojanHorse

I love that he was SO OFFENDED by a 2 year old thread he had to dredge it up to complain about it.

mstateglfr 

its inevitable when so much of production and quality is hidden, what is discussed is just meaningless marketing speak, and whats easily observable is a shift in oroduction due to costs.

yeah- all that turns into speculation and hesitation. When you then see a lot of products(related and unrelated) for very low prices and similarly low quality coming out of the same place, it only adds fuel to the skepticism.

and there is a very natural point at which consumers have to decide to blindly trust marketing material or be skeptical without evidence, due to the lack of transparency and meaningful information on the product.
those who are skeptical can sometimes paint with too broad a brush.
and that can sometimes seem like its prejudiced against the people in general who make the products. Often tines its just skepticism over the products and quality.

Bike Gremlin

A friend runs a leather accessory factory locally. He went to China for supplies along with other foreign countries. From his experience (if he's lied to me, I'm lying to you):

• Higher number series get you a lower price. Those who produce 100,000 batches won't bother with a series of 100, or a 1,000 - says it takes them that many "waste" just to calibrate the machines for some products.
• Negotiating a price by asking for a lower price gets you a lower quality product - they will cut some corners, whatever is not set in stone within the contract and you get what you "desired" - just not what you expected.
• Better way for price negotiation is asking for a "higher quality" at the stated price. At least he's had good results with that tactics - looking for cheap starting offers, then negotiating better quality.
• You get more than you pay for - compared to prices elsewhere. Especially compared to Italy, even Turkey (for leather at least). For about 1/2 the "Italian price" you can get a better quality, but most people expect about 1/10th of the price when doing business in China.

Chinese have sent a man into space, I wouldn't underestimate them. But you can't expect to have a Mercedes at a $100 price. Isn't Iphone mostly made in China?

As far as prejudice go, I'm not a great fan of Italian engineering.

Heaven: British police, German engineers, Italian shefs.
Hell: German police, Italian engineers, British shefs.

Cyclist0108

Somebody has to pay for all that spurious punctuation.

nomadmax 

ALL of that ^^^^^^^. I get it, it's a "world economy" and the origin of things are no longer tied to the country they originated in. All I'm asking is to pass the savings down to me when you have 50% less invested in making the product instead of charging me the same "rich heritage" price.

kingston 

Here's an interesting article about Montebelluna, a town outside Venice where Sidi, Diadora, Northwave and many other Italian specialty athletic shoe companies are headquartered. They still make the custom and very high-end shoes and boots there.

mstateglfr 

Costs could be in the engineering and marketing sides of business, so production savings isnt nearly as much as assumued.
Or perhaps they would have had to increase costs if they kept production in Italy so they are effectively passing the savings to the customer by producing in China(or elsewhere).

indyfabz

Heh. Thought it sounded familiar so I looked it up. I rode in that area in 2013. Maybe have actually stopped in the town for coffee/snacks. It's only 25K from where we were staying (Borso del Grappa).

Dean V

Companies are there to make money for their owners/shareholders.
If they can cut costs and increase profit margins they will.
It is that simple.

Zaskar

It's funny, I'd expect the quality to go up with the move from Italy to China. Sure, the Italians are amazing designers, but when was quality ever tightly associated with Italian manufacturing? Fiat? Ferrari?

In a perfect world, everyone would stick to what they're good at. My dream car example:
- Spec'ed by the Americans (think horsepower, heated seats... )
- Exterior design by the Italians
- Interior design by the English (do the piping, not the wiring!)
- Engineering by the Germans
- Bid it out to the Koreans and Japanese to build it

burnthesheep

IIRC, when the famous Doc Martins moved over to China.....suddenly some of the stitching quality actually, gasp, improved! Still issues in a few shoe models and from certain locations, but overall, the Chinese ones had fewer quality issues.

It's all about the oversight from the parent company.