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Specialized frameset prices are absolutely ridiculous

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Specialized frameset prices are absolutely ridiculous

Old 12-06-16, 11:08 AM
  #51  
WalksOn2Wheels
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Originally Posted by 69chevy View Post
If you are talking about my post, I didn't complain at all, I just merely pointed out that marketing cost is likely a huge reason behind the price of bicycle frames.


You reinforced it by mentioning the Venge. The bike is marketed as saving you minutes on a 40k TT, despite the fact that it's not a bike designed for a TT.


If you race, minute differences in aerodynamics become even more minute when you ride in another persons draft (which most racers do 95% of the time).


If you time trial, then the aero gains become more important, but you do it on a TT bike.


So what is the Venge designed to do? Whatever it is didn't convince Sagan to ditch his Tarmac. Why didn't he want the extra minutes since his livelihood depends on it?


The Venge is a beautiful bike designed to command top dollar through fancy marketing.


It does that well.
1) I don't even like the Venge.

2) Not advertised to save you x amount of time on a TT, but x amount of time over a set distance. I don't think it's ever been advertised, even inadvertently, as a TT bike.

What I'm mainly talking about is people fussing over whether or not the new thing is worth it or not. If you (not you specifically) are truly happy and one with your 30 year old steel bike, that is awesome. If it is really that great, why aren't you out riding rather than spending lots of effort in tearing down every new thing as not worth your money? Aren't you already doing that with your wallet by not buying it? Don't you have better things to do than gripe about the new BB standard if your threaded BB is operating so flawlessly?
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Old 12-06-16, 11:43 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
1) I don't even like the Venge.

2) Not advertised to save you x amount of time on a TT, but x amount of time over a set distance. I don't think it's ever been advertised, even inadvertently, as a TT bike.

What I'm mainly talking about is people fussing over whether or not the new thing is worth it or not. If you (not you specifically) are truly happy and one with your 30 year old steel bike, that is awesome. If it is really that great, why aren't you out riding rather than spending lots of effort in tearing down every new thing as not worth your money? Aren't you already doing that with your wallet by not buying it? Don't you have better things to do than gripe about the new BB standard if your threaded BB is operating so flawlessly?
From Bicycling magazine...


"-So Specialized’s claim around its new Venge ViAS definitely caught our attention. With the new bike, including wheels and tires, and a cycling kit that includes their new shoes, skinsuit and existing Evade helmet, the company promised we’d be five minutes faster in a 40km time trial. What’s more, Specialized offered to prove it. You’re on, we said."


What's worth an individual person's money is up to that person.


I know adults who would never spend $100 on a pair of shoes, yet I have a basketball loving son who saves every penny he is gifted so he can buy $200 basketball shoes.


Is it worth it? To him it is.


If I spend $200 or $20,000 on a bike and absolutely love riding it, either amount is worth it to me.
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Old 12-06-16, 11:49 AM
  #53  
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So much hate! Why don't you guys build yourself a money no object race bike and give it a try? You might be surprised how nice it actually is.

My Venge is my favorite bike barnone.
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Old 12-06-16, 11:55 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
I agree with you on this and this is where I raise an eyebrow. They go to the trouble of tying up capital and assembly time in complete bikes with throwaway bits when they could make the same profit selling you a frameset at less than what they now charge for framesets. I don't get why they would not want to do this.
This would only work if all of the companies sold just frames.

Probably, they can sell many more complete bicycles than selling just framesets.

Whatever the reason, it's probably why they are a profitable bicycle company and you are not.
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Old 12-06-16, 12:04 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by lsberrios1 View Post
You guys would be surprised to see how many framesets specialized sells.
The number of complete bikes Specialized sells is likely many times more than the number of framesets.

Originally Posted by lsberrios1 View Post
When it comes to getting the best money can buy, those who have the disposable income are willing to pay an extra 20% to have something unique and specific to their wants. To them the jump from $8k to $10k is worth the difference if it means they will get exactly what they want. There is a reason why specialized does not sell the Tarmac Elite frameset or Venge Elite frameset, they know the market is not there.
You are missing the point. The bad argument is that framesets are too expensive and that Specialized would make more money selling framesets much cheaper. Your people with "disposable income" indicate that the frames they buy are not too expensive.
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Old 12-06-16, 12:14 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
The point of the whole thread is that if they priced framesets more reasonably upgrades would be more accessible to customers and they would also get more business. Not everyone can take a beating on a $3-5k (or more) bike every few years, but reusing Ultegra/DuraAce/Di2 components that have mileage on them but work fine would be a more economical path that might be a winwin for everyone. For example, upgrade frame every few years and change the whole bike every ten.
winter sucks, but you can't be this ******* bored already, can you?

PS

not sure Spec is concerned with marketing high-end stuff to people that buy a new bike once a decade......
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Old 12-06-16, 12:24 PM
  #57  
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****
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Old 12-06-16, 01:17 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by exmechanic89 View Post
I was about to elaborate when I dropped my laptop and lost the connection. Anyway I don't agree that these companies are losing money on 'low volume', even the top components are still made in pretty large runs, though I cant quote the exact amounts. Also your comment that higher-end parts require all these massive changes might be true if comparing the lowest end part with the highest, but component groups step up in quality as the price goes up. And today's manufacturing techniques are much more efficient than what they were a couple of decades ago. AND alsmost everything is made overseas, where the labor rate is a fraction of what it costs in the US.
I didn't say they were losing money. None of us will ever know how much they truly profit on any group. I would be shocked if Dura Ace sales were anywhere near as profitable as Claris or Sora, though.

The rest of your post seems to imply that nothing should be expensive these days because we have CNCs and Chinese labor. That's ignorant at best.
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Old 12-06-16, 01:38 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by joejack951 View Post
I didn't say they were losing money. None of us will ever know how much they truly profit on any group. I would be shocked if Dura Ace sales were anywhere near as profitable as Claris or Sora, though.
Race on Sunday, sell on Monday.

I'm sure Shimano's most profitable stuff is Tourney and below, just because of the immense volumes. They probably sell 100 Wal-mart bikes for every Claris/Sora/105 bike. People see "Shimano" on the Wal-mart bike and think that means its decent components. Reality is a bit more mixed, but in truth, the lowest Shimano stuff is usually better than the equivalent un-branded versions...
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Old 12-06-16, 02:11 PM
  #60  
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Love this kind of thread.
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Old 12-06-16, 04:38 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
This would only work if all of the companies sold just frames.

Probably, they can sell many more complete bicycles than selling just framesets.

Whatever the reason, it's probably why they are a profitable bicycle company and you are not.
There is no need to be nasty or get personal.
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Old 12-06-16, 05:00 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
There is no need to be nasty or get personal.
No need, just a want, like a new frame....
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Old 12-06-16, 06:17 PM
  #63  
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Between rpenmanparker and njkayaker the thread has been completely solved. How about you two get onto hunger, health care, and world peace now that the controversy over frame sales has been so expertly resolved?
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Old 12-06-16, 08:01 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Because the average buyer probably isn't a 41 bike nerd that wants to build everything from the frame up?
I have been off the forum for a while, what is the 41 a reference to?
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Old 12-06-16, 08:21 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by jitteringjr View Post
I have been off the forum for a while, what is the 41 a reference to?
Each sub-forum used to have a unique number in the URL. "41-road cycling". With a recent back-end upgrade the numbers got removed but they live on forever....

From the main forums, you'll notice "The 33"-Road Bike Racing, that's the same referencing.
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Old 12-07-16, 11:04 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
There is no need to be nasty or get personal.
The apparent fact is that Specialized is a successful business.

And we have people saying they are "doing it wrong", based on what?

Based, it seems, on nothing and ignoring the fact that Specialized is successful and assuming Specialized put no/little real thought into choosing what they did.

That doesn't make much sense.

Last edited by njkayaker; 12-07-16 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 12-07-16, 11:09 AM
  #67  
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Succesful despite their idiocy. If they sold Tarmac framesets for $500, they would take $500 from me! Since they don't, I am taking my money elsewhere (the bank)! Your loss, Specialized, your loss.
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Old 12-07-16, 11:26 AM
  #68  
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asking the question a different way, what if any brands seem to price their frames more realistically in comparison to complete bikes
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Old 12-07-16, 11:34 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by dbf73 View Post
asking the question a different way, what if any brands seem to price their frames more realistically in comparison to complete bikes
The premise of the argument made by the OP was based on one example (an example that doesn't seem quite right).

One might be able to make the argument that real prices are "realistic".

Last edited by njkayaker; 12-07-16 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 12-07-16, 02:55 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by WalksOn2Wheels View Post
What I'm mainly talking about is people fussing over whether or not the new thing is worth it or not. If you (not you specifically) are truly happy and one with your 30 year old steel bike, that is awesome. If it is really that great, why aren't you out riding rather than spending lots of effort in tearing down every new thing as not worth your money? Aren't you already doing that with your wallet by not buying it? Don't you have better things to do than gripe about the new BB standard if your threaded BB is operating so flawlessly?
This is simultaneous a straw man and a false dichotomy. I think this is an important topic to discuss here because expressing any negative opinion on this forum often results in people getting upset, something I've never understood.

1. People are allowed to express an opinion that they believe something is bull****. This isn't "fussing" or senselessly "tearing down" or "griping", it's expressing an opinion. Trolls are rare here, often there's a lot of thought and experience behind these opinions. This kind of sharing is exactly what forums are for. Well considered negative comments add value to a forum.

2. You can be "pro-technology" and still be anti some of the things bike brands push as "advances". For example, I personally really like hydraulic disc brakes, tubeless tires, wireless electronic shifting and clutched rear derailleurs. I think these technologies are genuine advances. Conversely I don't think press fit bottom brackets, "aero" frames, "high modulus" carbon materials and carbon rims add any value. This isn't because I am "anti-technology", it's because I honestly believe with experience that these items don't add value and I believe I have good reasons for these beliefs.

Last edited by Hiro11; 12-07-16 at 03:01 PM.
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Old 12-08-16, 02:15 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by dbf73 View Post
asking the question a different way, what if any brands seem to price their frames more realistically in comparison to complete bikes
Canyon, BH.
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Old 12-08-16, 02:26 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
The apparent fact is that Specialized is a successful business.

And we have people saying they are "doing it wrong", based on what?

Based, it seems, on nothing and ignoring the fact that Specialized is successful and assuming Specialized put no/little real thought into choosing what they did.

That doesn't make much sense.
Microsoft is a successful business. Those complaining that Windows 8 is a poor OS are just ignoring that Microsoft is successful. All those complaints are baseless.

Netflix is a successful business, those saying they were "doing it wrong" by raising rates and moving their mail dvd service to another company at the same time were just baseless and nonsensical.

Kodak is a hugely successful business. When they patented and tabled digital cameras in favor of the film camera market share they dominated, the naysayers were just uneducated morons. Digital wasn't going anywhere, and Kodak knows the camera business better than them, so it knew better by staying with film.

It makes no sense that consumes would not support New Coke. Coke knows what they are doing; after all, they make drinks for a living and are the world's largest soft drink manufacturer. People should know when to agree that something tastes good. New Coke only failed because of ignorant complainers who didn't know how to listen to a successful business when choosing a drink.

Based, it seems, on nothing and ignoring the fact that Specialized is successful and assuming Specialized put no/little real thought into choosing what they did.
Actually, I know exactly why they do what they do.
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Old 12-08-16, 02:38 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
What does this have to do with anything? I don't know what it is with the combative nature of this forum.. users argue for the sake of arguement's sake.

Tarmac frameset and complete Ultegra bike are priced the same. Doesn't make much sense.

And they generally are arguing points that they don't understand...which is what starts the arguments in the first place.


FWIW on frame pricing...companies are not really interested in selling frames, especially higher end carbon. Why you may ask? Well, if they are like Specialized, Merida can only make so many so fast. There is a pecking order for frames and generally frame only sales are at the bottom. Above that are full bike sales, pro team needs, warranty, etc.
When they do a construction run they don't make that many. Something most customers do not understand. They think bike companies are like Ford with a bazillion bikes. Not true.
The reason why frame sales are expensive is that they really don't want to sell them that way. There are other reasons, but that's a big one.
Hope that helps some.
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Old 12-08-16, 03:00 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Jiggle View Post
Microsoft is a successful business. Those complaining that Windows 8 is a poor OS are just ignoring that Microsoft is successful. All those complaints are baseless.

Netflix is a successful business, those saying they were "doing it wrong" by raising rates and moving their mail dvd service to another company at the same time were just baseless and nonsensical.

Kodak is a hugely successful business. When they patented and tabled digital cameras in favor of the film camera market share they dominated, the naysayers were just uneducated morons. Digital wasn't going anywhere, and Kodak knows the camera business better than them, so it knew better by staying with film.

It makes no sense that consumes would not support New Coke. Coke knows what they are doing; after all, they make drinks for a living and are the world's largest soft drink manufacturer. People should know when to agree that something tastes good. New Coke only failed because of ignorant complainers who didn't know how to listen to a successful business when choosing a drink.

Actually, I know exactly why they do what they do.
Just saying "they are doing it wrong" isn't an argument.

You have to have some basis for saying "they are doing it wrong" and you can't ignore the fact that Specialized is successful and you can't assume Specialized put no/little real thought into choosing what they did.

I'm not saying that Specialized is right in their pricing of framesets. It's just you (not an expert) don't really an argument that they are wrong (you've done no work to be convincing).

Selling framesets appears to be a minor part of Specialized's business (not a situation anything like the irrelevant examples you listed).

Last edited by njkayaker; 12-08-16 at 03:17 PM.
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Old 12-08-16, 07:59 PM
  #75  
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I find your talk about my assumptions to be disingenuous and further communication with you to be completely pointless. Goodbye.
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