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Specialized frameset prices are absolutely ridiculous

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Specialized frameset prices are absolutely ridiculous

Old 12-05-16, 03:24 PM
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vinuneuro
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Specialized frameset prices are absolutely ridiculous

I love Specialized bikes but their frameset pricing is pretty wacky. For the same price as a Tarmac (10r) frameset you can get the fully built-up (10r) Ultegra bike that uses the same frame and it's a similar story for other models.

Last edited by vinuneuro; 12-05-16 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 12-05-16, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
For the same price as a Tarmac (10r) frameset you can get the fully built-up (10r) Ultegra bike.

The new Roubaix is only currently offered as an S-Works (11r frame) frameset at $4k. For reference a Roubaix (10r frame with the futureshock head suspension) with a mix of 105 and Ultegra components is $2600!
No guarantee the 10r and 11r frames are identical. I assume some subtle differences.

There have been people who will buy a cheap version (Tiagra?), strip and sell the components as "new-pulls", and upgrade with the cheapest available import components of the class they wish (Ultegra, Dura Ace, Record, etc).

Prices are lower on used frames.
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Old 12-05-16, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
No guarantee the 10r and 11r frames are identical. I assume some subtle differences.

There have been people who will buy a cheap version (Tiagra?), strip and sell the components as "new-pulls", and upgrade with the cheapest available import components of the class they wish (Ultegra, Dura Ace, Record, etc).

Prices are lower on used frames.
I'm not in the market for a new bike.

Of course 11r are 10r are slightly different in weight and stiffness. The point is, even so, the price disparity is other worldly and the Tarmac example perfectly highlights the issue where the frameset and full bike are the same price.

Sure one could strip a new bike a swap components, but there's no reason for the mfr to force that situation in the first place.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:01 PM
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How much more does it cost Shimano to make a Dura Ace derailleur than to make a Tiagra derailleur? The Tiagra probably actually contains more material.

The may be a few differences such as using titanium vs stainless vs chromed steel.

What manufacturers have done is stratify the marketplace... and those demanding THE BEST pay for it. Or at least pay for the appearance of having the best.

The manufacturers could make everything top of the line, but they've chosen to stratify the market of their parts.

Often paint jobs are model specific, so strip the Tiagra and install Dura Ace on your frame, and it will have the wrong paint (and how expensive is that paint job?)
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Old 12-05-16, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
How much more does it cost Shimano to make a Dura Ace derailleur than to make a Tiagra derailleur? The Tiagra probably actually contains more material.

The may be a few differences such as using titanium vs stainless vs chromed steel.

What manufacturers have done is stratify the marketplace... and those demanding THE BEST pay for it. Or at least pay for the appearance of having the best.

The manufacturers could make everything top of the line, but they've chosen to stratify the market of their parts.

Often paint jobs are model specific, so strip the Tiagra and install Dura Ace on your frame, and it will have the wrong paint (and how expensive is that paint job?)
What does this have to do with anything? I don't know what it is with the combative nature of this forum.. users argue for the sake of arguement's sake.

Tarmac frameset and complete Ultegra bike are priced the same. Doesn't make much sense.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:13 PM
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Bike makers can have interesting prices when you start comparing the various models and prices.

Canyon in Australia is selling the Ultimate frameset for $1799. The full bike with 105 groupset is $2299 so that's a $500 price difference. Even from the UK sellers the 105 groupset will cost around $500 so by the time you add on the bars, seat and wheels you're either getting a great deal on the 105 bike or ripped off on the frameset depending on which way you want to look at it.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
How much more does it cost Shimano to make a Dura Ace derailleur than to make a Tiagra derailleur? The Tiagra probably actually contains more material.

The may be a few differences such as using titanium vs stainless vs chromed steel.

What manufacturers have done is stratify the marketplace... and those demanding THE BEST pay for it. Or at least pay for the appearance of having the best.

The manufacturers could make everything top of the line, but they've chosen to stratify the market of their parts.

Often paint jobs are model specific, so strip the Tiagra and install Dura Ace on your frame, and it will have the wrong paint (and how expensive is that paint job?)
What's wrong about the paint if you like it?
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Old 12-05-16, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
What does this have to do with anything? I don't know what it is with the combative nature of this forum.. users argue for the sake of arguement's sake.

Tarmac frameset and complete Ultegra bike are priced the same. Doesn't make much sense.
What's your point? Arguing needs no other justification than you want to do it.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:18 PM
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dont buy those ugly things then
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Old 12-05-16, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
Tarmac frameset and complete Ultegra bike are priced the same. Doesn't make much sense.
What exactly are you comparing? One frameset vs a complete build around a different frameset?
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Old 12-05-16, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
What's your point? Arguing needs no other justification than you want to do it.
The point of the whole thread is that if they priced framesets more reasonably upgrades would be more accessible to customers and they would also get more business. Not everyone can take a beating on a $3-5k (or more) bike every few years, but reusing Ultegra/DuraAce/Di2 components that have mileage on them but work fine would be a more economical path that might be a winwin for everyone. For example, upgrade frame every few years and change the whole bike every ten.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
What exactly are you comparing? One frameset vs a complete build around a different frameset?
Same frame

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...rameset/115266

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...maccomp/118206
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Old 12-05-16, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
Tarmac frameset and complete Ultegra bike are priced the same. Doesn't make much sense.
11r frameset with Ultegra Di2 -> $5400
10r frameset with Ultegra -> $3600
9r frameset with Ultegra -> $2400
9r frameset with 105 -> $2000

11r frameset -> $4000
10r frameset -> $2750 or $3000

The number of complete bicycles has to be many, many times the number of framesets they sell.

It's well-known that complete bikes are better values than framesets alone. It seems that that is easy understood by basic economics.

A frameset is, basically, a "bicycle part". Bicycle parts sold separately are never as cheap as they are as part of a complete bike.

Complete bikes might be better values, in part, because the component manufacturers give better pricing on components (due to volume).

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...gra-di2/118441
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...rameset/106286
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...rameset/115266
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...-expert/115636
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...4-elite/118381
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...rameset/126250
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...4-sport/115443

Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
The point of the whole thread is that if they priced framesets more reasonably upgrades would be more accessible to customers and they would also get more business. Not everyone can take a beating on a $3-5k (or more) bike every few years, but reusing Ultegra/DuraAce/Di2 components that have mileage on them but work fine would be a more economical path that might be a winwin for everyone. For example, upgrade frame every few years and change the whole bike every ten.
If the old parts are fine, the old frameset should be too.

The only way this would make any sense is if you did the work yourself. The market for people doing that is probably very small.

It "might be a winwin for everyone" or it might not. Are you more of an expert than Specialized is?

Last edited by njkayaker; 12-05-16 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:26 PM
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So you don't like the fact that they throw in all the other bits for free with the Comp version?
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Old 12-05-16, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Maybe, because you are wrong.


???

11r frameset with Ultegra Di2 -> $5400
9r frameset witn Ultegra Di2 -> $3300
11r frameset -> $4000
10r frameset -> $2750

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...gra-di2/118441
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...rameset/106286
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...mp-udi2/128747
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...rameset/126250
Wrong bikes. 10r frameset vs. 10r Comp Ultegra (not Di2).

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...rameset/115266
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...maccomp/118206

Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
So you don't like the fact that they throw in all the other bits for free with the Comp version?
That the frameset isn't more reasonably priced
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Old 12-05-16, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
What does this have to do with anything? I don't know what it is with the combative nature of this forum.. users argue for the sake of arguement's sake.

Tarmac frameset and complete Ultegra bike are priced the same. Doesn't make much sense.
But it has everything to do with it.

Say the 10R frameset is 100 grams heavier than the 11R frameset. Some people will pay extra for that, just like people will pay extra for the Dura Ace components just because they are marketed as "top of the line".

I have noticed that prices are a bit wonky.

Say you have a bike with component group sets A, B, & C.

Base Price A
B = Price of A + 100% of low retail price of B groupset.
C = Price of B + 100% of low retail price of C groupset.

One would think one would calculate the cost of C as the cost of the frame + wholesale cost of components, but it just doesn't work that way.

I assume the same is true in the auto industry when little upgrades get really expensive. One of the last pickups Dad bought didn't have a cigarette lighter outlet because he couldn't justify the $100 or so extra cost. How the world has changed with a plethora of 12V accessories.

Used bikes often are hit by an odd issue where the value of the complete bike drops quicker than the value of the components, quickly leading to a situation where the individual components are worth more than the complete bike.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:39 PM
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Yellow pinstriping

Oh, and for those Giants... 64cm frame size.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
The point of the whole thread is that if they priced framesets more reasonably upgrades would be more accessible to customers and they would also get more business. Not everyone can take a beating on a $3-5k (or more) bike every few years, but reusing Ultegra/DuraAce/Di2 components that have mileage on them but work fine would be a more economical path that might be a winwin for everyone. For example, upgrade frame every few years and change the whole bike every ten.
I didn't mean that point. I meant the point about not arguing. Do you post so folks can just agree with you?
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Old 12-05-16, 04:53 PM
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[QUOTE=CliffordK;19233631]How much more does it cost Shimano to make a Dura Ace derailleur than to make a Tiagra derailleur? The Tiagra probably actually contains more material.

What manufacturers have done is stratify the marketplace... and those demanding THE BEST pay for it. Or at least pay for the appearance of having the best.QUOTE]

^I've often thought this as well - how much cheaper is it really to make high-end component vs a mid level, or entry level? Sure the finish is generally nicer on the top models, but with today's incredible manufacturing techniques those differences are becoming less obvious, imo. And yeah the lighter materials do cost more sometimes, still in the end I really wonder how much of a difference cost-wise there really is in manufacturing between levels of components.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
But it has everything to do with it.

Say the 10R frameset is 100 grams heavier than the 11R frameset. Some people will pay extra for that, just like people will pay extra for the Dura Ace components just because they are marketed as "top of the line".

I have noticed that prices are a bit wonky.

Say you have a bike with component group sets A, B, & C.

Base Price A
B = Price of A + 100% of low retail price of B groupset.
C = Price of B + 100% of low retail price of C groupset.

One would think one would calculate the cost of C as the cost of the frame + wholesale cost of components, but it just doesn't work that way.

I assume the same is true in the auto industry when little upgrades get really expensive. One of the last pickups Dad bought didn't have a cigarette lighter outlet because he couldn't justify the $100 or so extra cost. How the world has changed with a plethora of 12V accessories.

Used bikes often are hit by an odd issue where the value of the complete bike drops quicker than the value of the components, quickly leading to a situation where the individual components are worth more than the complete bike.
It is called price pointing and value pricing. You don't charge based on what it costs to make a bike. You charge based on what people are willing to pay.
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Old 12-05-16, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
That the frameset isn't more reasonably priced
You sure you're not comparing apples to oranges?

The two that you linked both show 10r, but specify differences in the BB - there may be other differences, as well. Further, the Tarmac Expert has the same exact frame description as the Pro frameset and is largely outfitted identically to the Comp (mostly Ultegra, same wheels, but with a different crankset, slightly better saddle) but with a $3600 price tag. If the framesets are the same, as you suggest, the Comp and Expert would be redundantly redundant.
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Old 12-05-16, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by vinuneuro View Post
Wrong bikes. 10r frameset vs. 10r Comp Ultegra (not Di2).

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...rameset/115266
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...maccomp/118206

That the frameset isn't more reasonably priced
Wrong bikes.

Same frame: $2750.

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/bi...rameset/106286

And the bike you should be comparing it to: $3600

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/me...-expert/115636

Last edited by njkayaker; 12-05-16 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 12-05-16, 05:21 PM
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I would wager that Specialized doesn't have any interest in selling frames. If you want to over-pay for a frame, they're happy to let you. I suspect they view frames as a distribution headache.
It's not like many of the other manufacturers are much better. If you look at Trek, and Emonda SL frame is $1900 and SL 5 bike is $2400, the cheaper Emonda S frame is not available.

In your example, the two frames are similar but they obviously aren't the same. The Tarmac Comp is 10r but has a threaded BB and different seatpost. The Tarmac Pro has a OSBB and S-Works post. The Tarmac Expert does use the same Tarmac Pro frameset, but costs $3600 with Ultegra 6800.

Keep in mind that you can buy a complete Ultegra groupset for $600 (I'm sure Specialized pays far less), and similar wheelset for ~$100. So basically Specialized is selling the components to you at cost. Specialized is going to make the same money on the frame regardless of if it's a complete bike or bare frame.

One last thing is that I'd bet no one actually buys a frame for that price. I'll bet that 99% of bare frames are warranty, crash replacement or pro discounts.
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Old 12-05-16, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
I would wager that Specialized doesn't have any interest in selling frames.
There are probably very-few people interested in buying frames.

Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
I suspect they view frames as a distribution headache.
And other reasons. They can sell complete bikes for something (if they have last year's stock). They might be mostly stuck with older frames.

Last edited by njkayaker; 12-05-16 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 12-05-16, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rpenmanparker View Post
You don't charge based on what it costs to make a bike. You charge based on what people are willing to pay.
this is all that really matters ^
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