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My first go at road tubeless...inauspicious

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My first go at road tubeless...inauspicious

Old 01-02-17, 02:41 PM
  #51  
DOS
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Originally Posted by cbrstar View Post
I think the technology must have had changed on me again

You used to have to have a tubeless style rim. Then you needed glue, and you had to stretch a tire that was slightly smaller then the rim onto it. Once it was on you didn't have any problems with leakage cause they were self contained.

I wonder if just like a car or motorcycle tire if you wet the tire first with soapy water, and make sure the side walls are clean. That it will make a more sealed bead around the tire?
Thats pretty much what they recommend,although not so much to improve the seal but to make it easier to get the tire on the rim and aid the bead popping into the hook in the rim. I didnt have any trouble getting the tire on without use of a lever; but getting it to seal was a challenge. Anyway, Schwalbe even makes this fluid for this purpose https://www.schwalbetires.com/access...mounting_fluid. I suspect its basically dishwashing soap.
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Old 01-02-17, 03:46 PM
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One thing I've noticed about tubeless in the last 12k miles is that I've lent out a lot of tubes, and most roadies suck at changing tires.

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Old 01-02-17, 03:50 PM
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Old 01-02-17, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
One thing I've noticed about tubeless in the last 12k miles is that I've lent out a lot of tubes, and most roadies suck at changing tires.

Maybe because their experience in having to change tubes is so lacking?
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Old 01-02-17, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Maybe because their experience in having to change tubes is so lacking?
That was pretty good.

In all seriousness though, I always end up being the one with the tire and wheel in my hands just to expedite things.
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Old 01-02-17, 05:48 PM
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If you lack the patience to teach a man to fish, you'll be stuck feeding him forever.
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Old 01-02-17, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by nycphotography View Post
If you lack the patience to teach a man to fish, you'll be stuck feeding him forever.
Good point, it has been different riders.

"Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring." –Desmond Tutu
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Old 01-02-17, 08:21 PM
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Old 01-02-17, 10:00 PM
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I am just realizing how little I know about tubeless tires (and even disc brakes for that matter). I am really looking forward to learning a few new things!

New bike arrives Thursday. Should look like this green one (only bigger).
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Old 01-03-17, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter View Post
I am just realizing how little I know about tubeless tires (and even disc brakes for that matter). I am really looking forward to learning a few new things!

New bike arrives Thursday. Should look like this green one (only bigger).
^^ I take it you jumped on the sale price on that? Looks like a solid bike/value.
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Old 01-03-17, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DOS View Post
Thats pretty much what they recommend,although not so much to improve the seal but to make it easier to get the tire on the rim and aid the bead popping into the hook in the rim. I didnt have any trouble getting the tire on without use of a lever; but getting it to seal was a challenge. Anyway, Schwalbe even makes this fluid for this purpose https://www.schwalbetires.com/access...mounting_fluid. I suspect its basically dishwashing soap.
On my motorcycle I had used the brakes so hard that it broke the paint loose inside the rim. Suddenly my brand new tires were leaking like crazy. A little bit of cleaning out the old paint, and then some soapy water and it was as good as new.

I wonder if you can knock the tires loose on a roadbike with breaking too hard?
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Old 01-03-17, 12:29 PM
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I'll never buy a set of tubeless compatible wheels again. I've repaired hundreds of flats on dozens of wheels, but trying to remove a tire off of a Ultegra 6800 wheel was the first time I've ever been denied. This was in a shop with the use of high-leverage metal tire irons .

I resorted to cutting the tire off of with a hacksaw and some wire cutters. If this had occurred to me while riding in my 'hood, I would have been walking for miles.

Besides, I just don't get the point of tubeless. There is no possibility of these wheels being 'high performance', as they are clinchers, with all the insurmountable weight and safety penalties of the clincher rim profile. Nobody rides clinchers at a high level. If I want a high performance wheelset, I'll invariably be riding tubulars. On tubulars, I can obtain all of the flat-resistance I need by pre-injecting 20 grams of Stan's through the valve cores.
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Old 01-03-17, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I'll never buy a set of tubeless compatible wheels again. I've repaired hundreds of flats on dozens of wheels, but trying to remove a tire off of a Ultegra 6800 wheel was the first time I've ever been denied. This was in a shop with the use of high-leverage metal tire irons .

I resorted to cutting the tire off of with a hacksaw and some wire cutters. If this had occurred to me while riding in my 'hood, I would have been walking for miles.

Besides, I just don't get the point of tubeless. There is no possibility of these wheels being 'high performance', as they are clinchers, with all the insurmountable weight and safety penalties of the clincher rim profile. Nobody rides clinchers at a high level. If I want a high performance wheelset, I'll invariably be riding tubulars. On tubulars, I can obtain all of the flat-resistance I need by pre-injecting 20 grams of Stan's through the valve cores.
Yes. Simply superb logic. One particular tire fit poorly on one particular rim, so all tubeless is a waste of time and effort. I had a Vittoria (tubed!) tire that absolutely refused to go on my rim-- with three people trying to mount it. This must obviously mean that all Vittoria tires are garbage. My rims must be garbage, too.

You don't get the point of tubeless, yet you tried to mount some? And presumably they went on okay, but refused to come off? Or is your little incident a convenient hodgepodge or the empirical and the anecdotal? If you aren't riding on tubulars now, what was the point of your post, exactly? Or are you (like most of us, apparently) struggling through life under the weight and safety penalties of clinchers?

I only responded and quoted your post so innocent readers won't accidentally think anything your wrote in it has any validity whatsoever.
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Old 01-03-17, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I'll never buy a set of tubeless compatible wheels again. I've repaired hundreds of flats on dozens of wheels, but trying to remove a tire off of a Ultegra 6800 wheel was the first time I've ever been denied. This was in a shop with the use of high-leverage metal tire irons .

I resorted to cutting the tire off of with a hacksaw and some wire cutters. If this had occurred to me while riding in my 'hood, I would have been walking for miles.

Besides, I just don't get the point of tubeless. There is no possibility of these wheels being 'high performance', as they are clinchers, with all the insurmountable weight and safety penalties of the clincher rim profile. Nobody rides clinchers at a high level. If I want a high performance wheelset, I'll invariably be riding tubulars. On tubulars, I can obtain all of the flat-resistance I need by pre-injecting 20 grams of Stan's through the valve cores.
That makes sense to me.



The main advantages used to be that you could get a much thinner, and lighter rim with tubeless. But now modern clincher rims are so much thinner and lighter I don't see the advantage.

Really the only advantage is saving a few grams of the weight of the tubes, which in racing makes sense but not for touring.
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Old 01-03-17, 01:03 PM
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All tubeless tire/rims combinations do fit tighter than standard tubed clinchers. They have to in order to maintain a seal. They are harder to install - this is basic knowledge.

Didn't know the Ultegra wheels were tubeless compatible before we got them; otherwise we wouldn't have - too much of a hassle installing tires, and especially removing them. Removing heavy-duty wire-bead tires on tubeless rims? Impossible.

Besides: if you need a bike to pick up groceries, or to park outside the pub, then tubed clinchers are the way to go. For high performance riding, tubulars are mandatory.

One more downside of the tubeless compatible wheels was the rims had no spoke hole drillings, to make for a better seal. So if we ever need to replace a spoke nipple.. then what? Of course the provided nipples were custom hex-shaped, requiring a custom tool. Another PITA.
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Old 01-03-17, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by cbrstar View Post
That makes sense to me.



The main advantages used to be that you could get a much thinner, and lighter rim with tubeless. But now modern clincher rims are so much thinner and lighter I don't see the advantage.

Really the only advantage is saving a few grams of the weight of the tubes, which in racing makes sense but not for touring.
Correction.... you mean that you can get a lighter and thinner rim with tubulars. Look at the rim profiles in the pic - 16 B is the tubular, and 20 A is the clincher. Note the 2 'hooks' on the clincher rim that is required to keep the tire bead on. These are not required on the tubular. This is where the insurmountable weight advantage of the tubular rim is manifested. Weight savings at the very most important point on a bike: rotating weight distant from the axis of rotation.

Second, note that the ends of the hooks are sharp, unlike the curved profile of the tubular rim. The hooks cause pinch flats, whereas tubulars are almost impenetrable to pinch flats. Which means you have to ride bigger (heavier) tires at higher pressures on clinchers. More disadvantages.
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Old 01-03-17, 01:17 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by DOS View Post
Thats pretty much what they recommend,although not so much to improve the seal but to make it easier to get the tire on the rim and aid the bead popping into the hook in the rim. I didnt have any trouble getting the tire on without use of a lever; but getting it to seal was a challenge. Anyway, Schwalbe even makes this fluid for this purpose https://www.schwalbetires.com/access...mounting_fluid. I suspect its basically dishwashing soap.


I had approximately 13k miles using Schwab tubeless on Shimano C24 wheels. Sealing is not that difficult. You have to be patient applying the mounting fluid. Most of the time I was able to use a floor pump to inflate the tire. A couple of times I needed to use CO2.


The real problem is repairing a rare flat on the road. The sealant could be messy. In addition, you'll have to remove the stem on the rim to install the tube. Make sure you lubricate the locking ring on the stem. It could be very difficult to remove on the road without tools. I switched back to clinchers about 4k miles ago when I acquired a new set of wheels.

Last edited by hsuehhwa; 01-03-17 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 01-03-17, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
I'll never buy a set of tubeless compatible wheels again. I've repaired hundreds of flats on dozens of wheels, but trying to remove a tire off of a Ultegra 6800 wheel was the first time I've ever been denied. This was in a shop with the use of high-leverage metal tire irons .

I resorted to cutting the tire off of with a hacksaw and some wire cutters. If this had occurred to me while riding in my 'hood, I would have been walking for miles.
You're either completely full of it or utterly incompetent.
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Old 01-03-17, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
All tubeless tire/rims combinations do fit tighter than standard tubed clinchers. They have to in order to maintain a seal. They are harder to install - this is basic knowledge.
No, no, and no. My Maxxis tires go on with no extra effort. Neither did my Schwalbes. They maintain a seal because of the hook-shaped bead on the rim. Lastly, they are usually easier to install because there's no tube getting in the way.
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Old 01-03-17, 01:37 PM
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It seems tubeless/non-tubeless has replaced "disc vs rim brake" as the trendy topic to argue over. To sum up, "nuh uh! Yuh huh!"
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Old 01-03-17, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
It seems tubeless/non-tubeless has replaced "disc vs rim brake" as the trendy topic to argue over. To sum up, "nuh uh! Yuh huh!"
Although I was joking about it earlier, it's been my experience that those who actually know how to install a tire properly don't have an issue with tubeless.

A HUGE plus with tubeless tires and rims is it's simply a far sturdier interface than typical clinchers nevertheless the tolerances are far tighter. One needs to know what they're doing.
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Old 01-03-17, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
For high performance riding, tubulars are mandatory.
What constitutes 'high performance riding?' I haven't checked every single one of them, but I don't think there are many rulebooks out there that specify tubulars as the only rims allowed.
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Old 01-03-17, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Correction.... you mean that you can get a lighter and thinner rim with tubulars. Look at the rim profiles in the pic - 16 B is the tubular, and 20 A is the clincher. Note the 2 'hooks' on the clincher rim that is required to keep the tire bead on. These are not required on the tubular. This is where the insurmountable weight advantage of the tubular rim is manifested. Weight savings at the very most important point on a bike: rotating weight distant from the axis of rotation.

Second, note that the ends of the hooks are sharp, unlike the curved profile of the tubular rim. The hooks cause pinch flats, whereas tubulars are almost impenetrable to pinch flats. Which means you have to ride bigger (heavier) tires at higher pressures on clinchers. More disadvantages.
I could be slightly mistaken. But if you look at the fine print the 16b is 300g and the tire is 1 1/8th'', where as the 20a is 415g but the tire is 1 1/4'' on the 27'' rims. So to me the 16b is smaller and lighter.

But that was over 30 years ago, i'm sure they have made much smaller and lighter tubulars since.

EDIT: DERP NVM I got all the terminology mixed up and miss read your message. Sorry Dave.

Last edited by cbrstar; 01-03-17 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 01-03-17, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by UnfilteredDregs View Post
A HUGE plus with tubeless tires and rims is it's simply a far sturdier interface than typical clinchers nevertheless the tolerances are far tighter. One needs to know what they're doing.
Which is why I think most people need to feel they offer a noticeable advantage over clinchers before they're worthwhile. For many, unless you're having flats due to "goatheads" or some other condition that's hard to avoid, they're not worth the trouble. Everyone else can easily run appropriate pressure in clinchers and get by with less hassle.

As far as the debate, it seems like debating is becoming the most popular activity among cyclists these days. Each side tries to tell the other what they're advocating is a necessity. This neglects the fact that nothing is completely replaced by something else unless there's an inherent flaw or tremendous inefficiency in the previous system.

Thus, carbon fiber hasn't replaced aluminum, discs haven't replaced rim brakes and clinchers won't go away either. The one thing discs have in this category is a built in bullet point for marketers, which is improved braking in certain weather conditions. For those who ride in those conditions, that might be a deciding factor. But many do not and will continue to opt for the simple, yet effective system.
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Old 01-03-17, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by cafzali View Post
Which is why I think most people need to feel they offer a noticeable advantage over clinchers before they're worthwhile.
Agreed, you're in Rockland so you know the typical weekend warrior 9W drill to Bear & back from the city. Messy, littered road...and flats aren't exactly uncommon. I've seen folks suffer multiple flats, one time a gentleman riding with us suffered four, etc.. I wouldn't define the advantage of tubeless being limited to goathead territory.

Definite advantage if you ride messy roads. In plushly paved Connecticut (Greenwich & North for instance) $$$$$$$ Not so much, pretty academic actually.

The advantage is simply the fact of being able to handle multiple punctures without requiring a tube replacement, nevermind the fact that a tubeless tire is far more safely secured to the rim than a conventional clincher.

But yeah, whether that means anything to somebody or not is up to them.
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