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Age Old Question Answered: Which is faster Tubular, Clincher or Tubeless?

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Age Old Question Answered: Which is faster Tubular, Clincher or Tubeless?

Old 01-03-17, 12:04 PM
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cycledogg
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Age Old Question Answered: Which is faster Tubular, Clincher or Tubeless?

Clinchers, tubulars and tubeless - which tyre system is the fastest? (video) - Cycling Weekly

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Old 01-03-17, 12:10 PM
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Old 01-03-17, 12:23 PM
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Old 01-03-17, 12:30 PM
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So now that we got that answered....how about which tire system is the fastest?
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Old 01-03-17, 12:50 PM
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The test was about the weakest I've seen. Any mechanical engineering prof. would have failed a second-year student on this. I assume that is why the tester is working in the impoverished bike industry as opposed to earning real money as an engineer.

A tiny measured difference that would have been reversed by changing rims, tire pressures, tubes, the tubular glue the order of the testing, the cassette and the rider.

Besides, rolling resistance is a distant third in terms of performance metrics for wheels. Rotating mass and aero are far more important.
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Old 01-03-17, 12:53 PM
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Another slightly related question - which tire would you rather being riding when you are going your fastest? For me that is easy - tubular. Properly glues, the sickening feeling of aluminum or carbon fiber on pavement or - far worse - your tire jamming in the seatstays doesn't happen, even when you blow a tire at 60 mph.

More to the point - tubulars allow lighter equally strong rims. You can ride smaller, lighter, more aero tubulars than tubed clinchers for the same pinch flat risk. You can also damage the rim far more without the tire coming off. I've ridden tubular rims home with 2" indents from deep winter potholes (hidden underwater when I was using loaded panniers on Lowriders) and placed in a race when I bottomed out and dented both rims on RR tracks a half mile form the sprint finish. (4 hour race. Last hour was on bad New England roads. I had my tires - 220 matt tread silks - pumped less than hard to not beat me up over that crucial last hour. Race start got delayed two hours and I forgot I needed to top off my latex tubes to compensate.)

There's a reason the pros almost universally ride tubulars. But it is more about avoiding really bad results than finessing better results (except for the lighter rims).

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Old 01-03-17, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Besides, rolling resistance is a distant third in terms of performance metrics for wheels. Rotating mass and aero are far more important.
In light of this article, Wheel Performance, it's hard to accept rotating mass as more important than rolling resistance. 50% lower wheel mass, 0.33% improvement; 50% lower coefficient of rolling resistance, 9.7% improvement.
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Old 01-03-17, 01:45 PM
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There was not long ago a similar thread about tyre pressure and speed--just pedal--it is not going to make much difference for the vast majority of us!
Tubular tyres do have a "certain" ride quality--but expensive and can be messy!
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Old 01-03-17, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
Rotating mass and aero are far more important.
Bwahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! lmfao.

That's why they did the controlled track portion of the test between 250-300watts to sustain 40kph in order to come up with comparative data to derive the rolling resistance coefficient.

Your sacred cow is chopped meat.
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Old 01-03-17, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
So now that we got that answered....how about which tire system is the fastest?
I will respond first - then read the test.

I'm somewhat baffled that there is even a question.
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Old 01-03-17, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I will respond first - then read the test.

I'm somewhat baffled that there is even a question.
You make it sound as though there is a single immutable answer. At best, there might be only one answer for today; that doesn't mean that will still be the answer some time in the future. The question needs to be asked repeatedly.
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Old 01-03-17, 03:05 PM
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Here we go again with an endless and futile thread splitting hair!
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Old 01-03-17, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mayer View Post
The test was about the weakest I've seen. Any mechanical engineering prof. would have failed a second-year student on this. I assume that is why the tester is working in the impoverished bike industry as opposed to earning real money as an engineer.

A tiny measured difference that would have been reversed by changing rims, tire pressures, tubes, the tubular glue the order of the testing, the cassette and the rider.

Besides, rolling resistance is a distant third in terms of performance metrics for wheels. Rotating mass and aero are far more important.
Very incorrect.

CRR can play a bigger role than aero, and rotating mass really is inconsequential comparatively.

That's why seeing gatorskins on Zipp 404s is the the ultimate cringe. Slower setup than a box rim with latex/good tire.
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Old 01-03-17, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
You make it sound as though there is a single immutable answer. At best, there might be only one answer for today; that doesn't mean that will still be the answer some time in the future. The question needs to be asked repeatedly.
Are tyres faster than tires though? No one in the USA seems to sell the former, does the UCI ban the use of tires in the EU pro peloton but is fine with them in the USA?

Dozens are left wondering still.
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Old 01-03-17, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
You make it sound as though there is a single immutable answer. At best, there might be only one answer for today; that doesn't mean that will still be the answer some time in the future. The question needs to be asked repeatedly.
I read it - and it was as I had expected.
If you are on flat smooth roads a clincher can be very fast. But for a fair comparison, they should go best you can get, or maybe for the $$, but as the most expensive materials are not used for clinchers, that is also a tough compare to make.
In a best vs best comparison the tubular wheel set will be much lighter. A 25mm clincher is like a thinner tubular as far as recoil / bump absorption so exact handling / shock absorbing would be like (guess) a 25mm clincher vs 23mm tubular. Tubular rims are lighter and the tires roll on them (corners) better.
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Old 01-03-17, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Tubular rims are lighter and the tires roll on them (corners) better.
The issue with tubulars being that you have to glue them on near perfectly or you're going to get some bad CRR that can/will negate any other benefits.

Plus, you have to be careful about the tubular tubes. Continental, for example, doesn't even use latex. More CRR.
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Old 01-03-17, 03:55 PM
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Well if you have this tire, you'll never have to worry about getting a flat. So in effect, you have zero downtime at all since you'll never get a busted tire. To top it all off, you don't even need to inflate it. Just mount and ride!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...t-free-forever
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Old 01-03-17, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ARPRINCE View Post
Well if you have this tire, you'll never have to worry about getting a flat. So in effect, you have zero downtime at all since you'll never get a busted tire. To top it all off, you don't even need to inflate it. Just mount and ride!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...t-free-forever
Specialized already did it and has it on sale:

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/01/02...d-alibi-sport/
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Old 01-03-17, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
The issue with tubulars being that you have to glue them on near perfectly or you're going to get some bad CRR that can/will negate any other benefits.

Plus, you have to be careful about the tubular tubes. Continental, for example, doesn't even use latex. More CRR.
I glue them perfectly. That is the point.
Glueing FMB.jpg

There are lots of reasons to use clinchers. The test was not about convenience, it was about performance.
The implication was that riding the tubeless in the real world would be a better performing wheel set than a tubular.

For performance $2,000 wheel set in best tubular will be better than $2,000 in anything else. The exact configuration I'd use for the $2K depends on the application. That Tony Martin can win a world ITT on smooth flat roads on clinchers - I get. I think he could have done so on tubulars too.
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Old 01-03-17, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I glue them perfectly. That is the point.
And most people don't. That's my point.

It's a very painstaking process. Not that it can't or shouldn't be done. Just that for people who do not have professional mechanics on the payroll or have the skill and time necessary to do it on their own, tubular is probably not going to be the highest performing choice at this time (I may not have said that 10 years ago).
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Old 01-03-17, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I glue them perfectly. That is the point.
I'm not sure what that picture is meant to convey. Are you using shellac or at least two tubes of glue per wheel? If not, you haven't minimized losses due to the glue. https://www.biketechreview.com/tires_...sting_rev9.pdf
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Old 01-03-17, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
And most people don't. That's my point. ...
The point of the video was performance - specifically rolling resistance.

This test reminds me of the frame material comparison when someone takes a top notch alloy frame and compares to a poorly made carbon frame and says see - its lighter and performs better.

Looks like they used continental carbon glue on a Vittoria tire too. At least put some Mastic One On (or track glue for the track).
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Old 01-03-17, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
I'm not sure what that picture is meant to convey. Are you using shellac or at least two tubes of glue per wheel? If not, you haven't minimized losses due to the glue. https://www.biketechreview.com/tires_...sting_rev9.pdf
The ropes are applied to a low pressure tire after it is glues on and then inflating the tire seats it into the rim.
You can minimize loses due to glue based on the glue selected, and where and how you glue.
I use a can. I expect it is less than 2 tubes per rim.
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Old 01-03-17, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
The point of the video was performance - specifically rolling resistance.
I think we're talking past each other here.

If you don't have the expertise necessary to exact top CRR from tubulars, then the performance isn't going to be up to snuff.

In the context of the amateur user, that's pretty important when making the decision of which to use.
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Old 01-03-17, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I expect it is less than 2 tubes per rim.
Then I wouldn't call it gluing them perfectly.
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