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Pro cyclists had hidden motors since 1998?

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Pro cyclists had hidden motors since 1998?

Old 01-30-17, 05:43 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by flik9999 View Post
They accelerate like a rocket and then cap out at like 15 mph which is like 2/3 the speed of your average road bike.
Electric motors are designed (wound) to operate at a specific angular velocity (RPM) for a given voltage. Operating at higher speeds (unassisted) is impossible because there isn't enough voltage to overcome the back EMF. But it's relatively easy to design a system that can operate at any desired speed (by changing the winding, voltage, or both). You don't see that in many of the china-direct e-bike kits because they target a world market where e-bike regulations often limit unassisted speed to 20 kph. But you don't have to look very hard to find e-bikes that can cruise at 20+ MPH (and more than a few custom builds are capable of 40+ MPH).
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Old 01-30-17, 07:00 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post
Completely wrong.

1) Batteries have significantly improved by more than 2x. An 18650 cell in 1998 was about 1.2Ah, today's it's 3.5Ah.

2) The limitation is batteries not the motor. To provide 100W for 1hr requires a ~130 Wh battery. Assuming you can stash ~6 18650 in the seat tube, that's ~75 Wh using the best batteries available today (and the pack would add ~1.5 lbs). Older technology might give you a 30 Wh capacity for the same ~2 lbs. So you're looking at adding ~5lbs to a bike to get ~30 W for an hr. At their drug addled peak the top riders were making >6W/kg, it would hardly enhance their performance.

3) Sure the bikes were touching 7kg, but that doesn't mean anything. It's really obvious if one bike is using different components than the rest of the team, yet is still just at the limit. By the same token, the motorized bike would still be ~5lbs heavier than every other team bike. That's a huge difference. That's the difference between a HiMod Evo with Red vs floor stock Trek 1. It'd be blindingly obvious to anyone handling the bike.

4) When? The one instance was as spare bike in a mid-level women's CX race. That's a completely different case from World Tour level scrutiny.

Using a motorized bike in a World Tour race requires an almost un-fathomable level of conspiracy theory. EVERYONE on the team needs to be in on it. The directors, the riders, especially the mechanics. Given the turn-over on those teams, all it would take is a little tip-off to get someone busted and an entire team banned. Really, you're telling me that there wasn't a SINGLE disgruntled rider/mechanic with a grudge...

1. Lithium-based Batteries Information ? Battery University
In 1994, the cost to manufacture Li-ion in the 18650 cylindrical cell was over US$10 and the capacity was 1,100mAh. In 2001, the price dropped to below $3 while the capacity rose to 1,900mAh. Today, high energy-dense 18650 cells deliver over 3,000mAh and the costs are dropping.

2. Vivax system - commercially offered, tested by cyclingtips, does 100W @ 100min @ <4lbs. Even at half capacity of today's commercial offering would still provide a net advantage on a grand tour stage.

3. UCI has a weight minimum, not a weight maximum. Lighten the bike by a kilo, offsets the 1.8kg of motor system. Race bikes come in varying weights, not all sniff the 6.8 minimum. 800g wouldnt set flags off. When Sky bikes were consistently 800g over competitors (same type / stage) , nobody batted an eye

"French police told 60 Minutes that only one team had bikes that weighed more than the others — Team Sky. All the team’s bikes weighed about 800g more than the others."

4. ...and a "mid-level women's race" has as much stake as a WT race? if WT tag comes with it more "scrutinity", would cheating be more rampant there than at the lower level? pills? blood doping?

"Using a motorized bike in a World Tour race requires an almost un-fathomable level of conspiracy theory..."
"...Really, you're telling me that there wasn't a SINGLE disgruntled rider/mechanic with a grudge..."


Is this deja-vu? Didn't we hear the impossibility of such a large-scale, orchestrated cheating program, involving the most tested man in sports history and how it's not at all possible he could cheat, especially when it the reach of the team (family of riders, masseurs, extended support team) would mean such a thing would leak.... And the admirable UCI...why they would NEVER be complicit in irregularities of any kind, would they?

Professional cyclists have been cheating for literally over a century. Guys have been caught with other people's urine stashed in their shorts (Pollentier). Guys swap blood. They've sabotaged other people's bikes. They've dropped tacks on the road. Theyve hitched rides.

People have been cheating as long as they've competed. And yet we'll just discount the possibility of 1 form of cheating? It can't have happened... until it's discovered , right?
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Old 01-30-17, 07:22 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
However, they did deliver a fairly damning accusation to the Sky team. Why are their bikes 800 grams heavier...
What struck me the most is how Tyler Hamilton is morphing into Donald Sutherland as he ages. Maybe doping does that to you.
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Old 01-30-17, 08:02 AM
  #29  
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I didn't get to watch it. Anyone got a link to the video of the 60 Minutes piece? I'm unable to get it to play in my browser on the cbsnews.com website.
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Old 01-30-17, 08:33 AM
  #30  
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I'm not saying it hasn't or isn't happening, but if it has been going on since '98 I would think at some point it would be discovered, just like doping eventually came out. All it takes is a disgruntled mechanic or rider to start talking.
However, if it is true I'd be more disappointed than doping. They might as well race mopeds.
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Old 01-30-17, 08:39 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by puma1552 View Post
Is this gonna be the full hour or is this gonna be a 6 minute "story" at the very end?


It would have to be a humongous world event before a story occupied the entirety of 60 minutes. Cheating in cycling is nowhere near that ballpark.
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Old 01-30-17, 08:41 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post


It would have to be a humongous world event before a story occupied the entirety of 60 minutes. Cheating in cycling is nowhere near that ballpark.
Especially given how things are going these days. Anything about cycling is absolutely lowest priority news, even to most of us here who are rabid fans.
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Old 01-30-17, 08:59 AM
  #33  
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I didn't watch this, but the Cancellara video has to be one of the most lolworthy pieces of 'evidence' ever.
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Old 01-30-17, 09:29 AM
  #34  
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To get away with riding with a motor in the pro peloton, the mechanic, the team car and the rider all need to be in on it. This is all certainly possible but it seems like a logistical challenge. Blood doping was also a logistical challenge so anything is possible. All a rider would need is a few minutes of 50-100 watts to win a big race, the margins of victory are tiny. The motors and batteries make this very easy to achieve.
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Old 01-30-17, 09:36 AM
  #35  
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Why does the team car need to know? With HRM triggering, they don't. The mechanic needs to know -- but I'm not entirely certain that the rider needs to know. (Having said that, though, it's realistic to believe that they would all know. And pretty nave to think that they wouldn't.)

One thing that struck me about the report, though, is almost unrelated. The clearest statement in the report is Lance Armstrong's legacy in cycling. Lance created a larger-than-life persona. He was "Mr. Cycling." But now and forevermore, the media considers him "Mr. Cheater." No report on cheating in cycling will ever be complete without some mention of Lance Armstrong. Fifty years from now, when they discover a new way of cheating, they will have to ask, if only rhetorically, "Did Lance Armstrong have access to this in his U.S. Postal days?"
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Old 01-30-17, 09:58 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
Why does the team car need to know?
Because they need to manage the bikes and spares, keep them safe and away from prying eyes. Also, certain strategies might call for swapping in a powered bike at certain moments of a race or for certain stages. Regardless, the team car is going to need to know what's going on.
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Old 01-30-17, 10:02 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
Because they need to manage the bikes and spares, keep them safe and away from prying eyes. Also, certain strategies might call for swapping in a powered bike at certain moments of a race or for certain stages. Regardless, the team car is going to need to know what's going on.
And the neutral support cars will need to start stocking spare batteries.
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Old 01-30-17, 10:04 AM
  #38  
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I like the idea of the riders not needing to know. Because you wouldn't notice that something is odd.
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Old 01-30-17, 10:10 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
I like the idea of the riders not needing to know. Because you wouldn't notice that something is odd.
You clearly didn't see the report. You should check it out. Especially the part where Hamilton gives his impressions.
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Old 01-30-17, 10:12 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by FlashBazbo View Post
You clearly didn't see the report. You should check it out. Especially the part where Hamilton gives his impressions.
Clearly:

Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
I didn't watch this
Might check it out later.
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Old 01-30-17, 10:16 AM
  #41  
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A French anti doping guy now has also come forward with claims.

The Hungarian inventor already sold his invention. Maybe he can drum up more business now, sure...But what does the French guy have to gain?


Where there's smoke there's fire....
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Old 01-30-17, 10:20 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by redfooj View Post
Professional cyclists have been cheating for literally over a century. Guys have been caught with other people's urine stashed in their shorts (Pollentier). Guys swap blood. They've sabotaged other people's bikes. They've dropped tacks on the road. Theyve hitched rides.
My favorite has always been: "biting cork"
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Old 01-30-17, 10:34 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by redfooj View Post
A French anti doping guy now has also come forward with claims.

The Hungarian inventor already sold his invention. Maybe he can drum up more business now, sure...But what does the French guy have to gain?

Where there's smoke there's fire....
To me, this is the biggest "evidence": that the former head of testing for the French anti doping agency now comes out with this. This is very reminiscent of some people coming out about EPO and blood doping at first, but not having any hard evidence. This is not just "some guy" talking ****. Other than that, there is not really any new information here that we didn't already hear last year in a French report.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mech...investigation/

I don't think anyone has hard evidence right now, and sadly you cannot test in retrospect as you can with doping samples. But eventually it will all come to light.

To those people who say they test the bikes with X-ray and all: A lot of riders switch bikes during the race, and there have been known, recorded, instances of riders in big races accepting bikes from people by the side of the road (Such as Cancellara in one of the spring classics), not from the team car. That bike could not have been tested.

And to people who say it is technically not possible: you are living in denial. The technology definitely exists, it has been shown and demonstrated. And has been found to be used in professional Cyclocross by Femke Van Den Driessche. I don't know about 1998, but it has definitely existed in a small and concealable package for a few years now.

100Watts of extra power for a few minutes is all you need to decide between winning and losing a race.

Last edited by maartendc; 01-30-17 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 01-30-17, 10:37 AM
  #44  
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So where can you buy one of these? I want to impress my friends during training rides . . . .
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Old 01-30-17, 10:40 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
Clearly:



Might check it out later.
Link to segment: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-investigates-hidden-motors-and-pro-cycling/
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Old 01-30-17, 10:45 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by B1KE View Post
Cheers.
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Old 01-30-17, 11:21 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Hiro11 View Post
To get away with riding with a motor in the pro peloton, the mechanic, the team car and the rider all need to be in on it. This is all certainly possible but it seems like a logistical challenge. Blood doping was also a logistical challenge so anything is possible. All a rider would need is a few minutes of 50-100 watts to win a big race, the margins of victory are tiny. The motors and batteries make this very easy to achieve.

The whole sport is corrupt and those that are not willing to cheat are intimidated and threatened to keep their mouth shut.


-Tim-
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Old 01-30-17, 11:30 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
The whole sport is corrupt and those that are not willing to cheat are intimidated and threatened to keep their mouth shut.


-Tim-
Most (probably all) are.

Wherever money and careers are on the line, people will do what it takes to stay in the game.
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Old 01-30-17, 11:40 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
So where can you buy one of these? I want to impress my friends during training rides . . . .
It looks as if the guy sells direct. Shouldn't be hard to find.
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Old 01-30-17, 12:41 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Wherever money and careers are on the line, people will do what it takes to stay in the game.
True for pretty much anything.
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