Ericoschmitt

Hello everyone,

First, this shouldn't be a thread about "compact 2x11" vs. triple crank, so if you think triple is for the weak or whatever, you can keep that for you. I need another type of advice, so here goes my story:

I'm planning my next road bike gearing, and triple is the only thing that can accomodate all of my riding properly. I dont want to have two or three bikes, one for climbing, other for flats, another for touring or whatever, or swap cassetes.

Now I have ultegra 6600 2x10 53/39 12-25, and while that is almost perfect for flat uses, it sucks on steep climbs. There are some steep climbs where I'll be going at 10k/h and sometimes slower, and with my gearing thats 50rpm and slower. Not effective.

I said almost perfect because even with that cassete I miss the 18t cog, thats the one I'd use the most actually (it's the one I ride on my fixie, matches my avg speed with 90rpm). So I end up alternating a lot between 19 and 17 riding solo. I also wouldn't like getting a 28 cassete that has no 16t cog eighter, because even a compact 11s 11-28 wont have that cog, usually. Not to mention the bigger gaps on a 32 cassete. So my ideal dream gearing would be 25/39/53 cranks with a near-corncob cassete with the two lowest gears having bigger spacing (more on this later).

So those are my reasons to get a triple: wide range with close ratios on the cassete. Now to the advice I need:

What parts/groupset to get?

I know shimano made ultegra 6703 with 53/39/30, but thats expensive, getting hard to find and will be hard to replace if I ever break the left STI later. Also with a 30 crank, I still would need a 30t cassete with long cage rd, and have some gaps back there. It seems that the crank BCD wont let you go smaller than 30 too. Not sure.

I've been thinking if it would be possible to fit a mtb triple crank instead, until I found this website in UK selling touring custom triples:

www dot spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p2004/SPA-CYCLES-XD-2-Touring-Triple-Chainset-with-custom-TA-chainrings

Do you know of other brands and sources for this kind of cranks? Is mtb cranks still a good alternative?

The RD: do the new 11 speed work with 10s triples? Will the narrower chain fit those cranks? No problems? I know there's no 11 triple groupset out there, I'd have to mix stuff. Anyone seen that? If its not possible, I still prefer getting 3x10 over 2x11 though. If I stay with 10s, will I need a long cage rd or the one I have now will work?

Now to the FD: ultegra 6703 is an option, aswell as 105 or tiagra, but what about other brands, and mtb ones? I have also read somewhere else that you can make a 2s fd work with a triple shifter if you open the limiter screws. Has anyone done that with 6600?

And then, the shifters: yes, I could get the 6703 set, if I use 3x10. Or maybe find just the left 6603. But if 3x11 is doable, I'll have to mix. That wouldn't be symetric, oh no. And those STIs are quite expensive too, and in a few years I won't find triple front shifters anymore, so I've been thinking about friction shifters.

Maybe a front friction shifter with a rear STI? (Lance has used that in 2004...) But that wouldn't get me symetric hoods eighter, unless I find a set of 1x11 road lever/shifter set to buy somewhere. I know there were bikes made like that, but is there a place where I can get the levers/shifters?

And lastly, the cheapest option, a pair of tektro levers and DT shifters (indexed rear only, maybe)

About the cassete: I do want the 18 cog, but also a 25 or bigger lowest cog.
Have you seen cassetes such as these? Where do I get it?

10s:
12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-25
12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-22-26
12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-23-28

11s, if it is doable:
12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-28
12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-24-28

If the 3x11 is possible, an even lower gear could be interesting, because there are some 30% climbs around here. But it seems that the short cage RD goes up to 28, right? Id need a long one then.

Well, this is a long list of questions that I've been trying to figure out on my own, I'd be very glad to be given constructive advice. Thank you!!

topflightpro

There are still plenty of options for triple cranksets available: https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...p?category=520 if you really must go that route.

And yes, I do believe you need a long cage RD and triple specific FD. The cage on a triple FD is much larger.

joejack951

Tiagra 4703 is a new triple groupset that is 10 speed. If you really wanted, I don't see why you couldn't pair a Tiagra 4703 left lever, 4703 FD, 4703 long cage RD, crankset of your choice (perhaps a 105 5703 which I believe retains a 74mm BCD granny ring, or check ebay for NOS, or inquire with me about a Truvativ triple I have ), and 105 5800 right lever to make an 11 speed Shimano triple groupset. The levers would be nearly identical aside from the finish. Both would have internal cable routing, too.

tarwheel 

I have triples on three bikes and you have nothing to explain from my standpoint. I picked up used 105 and Dura-Ace triple groups for very reasonable costs and have not been disappointed. However, I prefer the Sugino triple (probably an XD500 crank but not sure) because of its smaller small chainring. For some reason, Shimano limits the size of its small chain ring to 30 teeth, which IMHO is not small enough for loaded touring. However, if you don't plan to ride loaded tours or travel light, a 30-tooth small ring might be fine.

I am using a DA long-cage rear derailleur on one bike, and Ultegra long cage RDs on my other bikes with triples. Likewise, they all have DA or Ultegra triple front derailleurs.

BTW, I have two other bikes with compact doubles. With a 12-34 rear cassette, they have nearly the same low-end gearing for climbing as my triples, but larger gaps between the other gears. If I had to choose one or the other -- a triple or compact double -- for a single bike, I would get the triple. Much more flexibility and closer spacing between gears.

kingston 

I'd just go with the Rivendell standard 9 speed setup with the sugino XD2, XT derailleurs and bar-end shifters. Works great at a reasonable cost. If you want 10 speed you can get the sugino Alpina 2 triple or the 105 triple is still available at CRC. Campy Athena comes in a 11 speed triple, but good luck finding one now that it's been discontinued. Same with the 105 10 speed triple. Microshift has a 10 speed triple group that probably works fine.

bikebreak

The cheap option would be replace the left shifter with the triple version, on ebay a 6603 or 6503 shifter would be $40 tops. bar end friction shifter should be cheaper.


Then you need a tripleizer chainring. Willow makes one. You replace your 39 ring with the tripleizer and then bolt on a granny gear to the tripleizer middle ring. You can get 30 or smaller for the granny.


You might need a bb spacer to move your right BB cup out a bit from the frame for clearance. Maybe not, I don't recall if the 6603 cranks needed any spacer vs the double.



You may need a longer cage rear derailer, but may be able to get away with the existing short cage. if you don't use small small combinations you won't need the extra chain wrap

If you have to have 18t, they do make a 13-25t cassette in 10 speed. None of the 11 speed cassettes have 18t

Dean V

You can build a 3x11 with Campagnolo. They do a 12-29 cassette but not sure if it has an 18 on it.

kingston 

Campy Chorous 11-23 & 12-25 11sp cassettes have an 18t cog.

The Miche primato also has several 11sp cassettes with an 18t cog that come in both shimano and campy flavors. 12-25, 14-25, 14-27 & 16-27

Dean V

Although you said no compact it could work.
50/34 and a 11-32 combined with a 14-25 could get you 14,15,16,17,18,19,20,22,25,28,32.
50/17 would be the same as your 53/18. Good chain line and several 1 tooth jumps either way. 34/32 fairly low first gear. Just lose a bit at the top end with the 50/14.

cpach

Generally, I'd consider how much you genuinely need your top gear. Sure, you probably do use your 53/12, but I'd bet it wouldn't drastically change your actual route times. The real need for high gearing are those who actually sprint.

I also think you are too concerned with actual cog numbers. Remember that your observations about what cogs you frequently use are predicated on the assumption that you are using a 53/39, and will not be true of other combinations of chainrings If you want to actually compare, try using Sheldon Brown's Bicycle Gear Calculator and compare gear inches or gain ratios or whatever unit you prefer. For example, 53x18 would be 78.3 gear inches, and a 50x17 is 78.7 gear inches--perceptibly the same.

The best options are:

Tiagra 4703: Available with a triple, ten speed. NOT COMPATIBLE WITH OTHER 10 SPEED DERAILLEURS/SHIFTERS. It actually borrows cable ratios from current 11 speed, resulting in more cable pull for more reliable shifting. Truthfully I think it works better than 6700. The matching crank is a 50/39/39, which is nice because it doesn't have a 52 or 53 big ring which is kind of silly with 11t cogs.

You can find some touring oriented cranksets with 46/36/26 or 48/36/29 that you could probably shift OK with a road triple derailleur (like FD-4703). With this kind of setup, you need to run the derailleur higher than you ordinarily would so that the sculpted inner plate doesn't rub the middle ring when in the big ring, and so shifting suffers a little, but it usually is OK. I would not use any MTB crank that had a big ring smaller than a 46.

Don't bother with older 10 speed stuff, because you already need to get a longer cage rear derailleur anyways.

Campagnolo: Still makes triples. A nice cassette they offer is 12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29, which is only available on a Campagnolo freehub body. It is also pretty much the only 11speed cassette with a 12t small cog.If you don't want to change wheels/freehubs, you can run Shimano/SRAM cassettes on a Shimano/SRAM freehub with Campagnolo derailleurs in 11speed.


Frankly, despite the continuing advancements of drivetrains, you still cannot have micro fine gear changes and a gearing range capable of competetive road sprints and loaded touring up 20% grades.

Maelochs

As do others, I question the need for a 53-tooth chainring—not to disparage you, but how often do you cruise at 35 mph?

As cpach notes, You might have to give up a little at one end or the other since you also want a really strong middle .... Unless you want to mount an 11-speed cassette on an IGH.

Lots of good ideas here. I might suggest really analyzing your need for speed—do you spin out a 53-11? 53-14? Would you really need a gear higher than 48-11? On my tourer I use 48-38-28, but I could go down to 32 or 30 and down to 22 on the bottom ... and if I were to be hauling a full load of camping/touring gear up a mountain, I would need that.

Do you actually do fully loaded cross-country touring? Do you really do 40-mph sprints?

Some comparisons:
53-11-- 127.10 gear inches
53-12-- 116.51 gear inches
52-12 --113.9 gear inches
48-11---114.7 gear inches
34-28- 32.03 gear inches
28-25- 29.55 gear inches
28-28-- 26.38 gear inches

Seems to me you might need to go with a 48-3x-2x, and maybe swap chainrings, and maybe even assemble your own cassette to get Exactly the gearing you want ... or just get a 48-38-28 and a 12-25 or a 12-28 and let your body adapt.

By the way, I wholly support the triple ... I think a lot of riders who are more interested in actually riding instead of pretending to be racers, will have zero scorn for the choice—for a lot of people it is a really wise choice.

Another thought---you can swap cassettes easily in about three minutes. If you plan to ride roads unloaded, you can use an 11-25, or a 12-25, while if you were heading out on a serious unsupported tour, you could swap in a 14-34 or something. You would need a long-cage derailleur ... and if you were Really hardcore you could get a wolf's tooth or whatever and mount a 40- or 42-tooth granny.

rm -rf

14-32 combined:

I don't see a 14-25 in 11-speed.
The 105 14-28 (see the dealer manual) has 28,25,23 on a carrier, and 21,20 on another carrier. The remaining smaller cogs are individual: 19 18 17 16 15 14. (Ultegra 14-28 works the same way).

BUT -- who sells this 14-28? I don't see any sources in google shopping links. It's used for junior racing, which limits the high gear sizes, so it's a specialty item.

The 11-32 has 32,28,25 on a carrier, and 22,20 on the second carrier. This is "20A", while the 14-28 has "20C", so that shift from 19 to 20 might be a little less smooth than the others. (The "A" or "C" has the teeth rotated to a different orientation.)
The smallest cog, 11 or 14 is shaped to work with the lock ring, so you can't just drop the first couple of cogs from a cassette, you need one with the correct smallest cog.

So it's: 14 15 16 17 18 19 from 14-28 and 20 22 25 28 32 from 11-32.

and the leftovers are:
11 12 13 14 16 18 from 11-32 and 20 21 23 25 28 from 14-28. Not very useful--that 14 16 18 portion has pretty large gaps (of course, the original 11-32 has this same problem, wide shifts in the 19-25 mph range.)

Speed and cadence with this 14-32
This 14-32 would be really nice on my faster group rides, with lots of time spent between 17 and 23 mph.

Here's the 34/50 front and 14-32 combined 11-speed, at typical road cadences.
You'll spin out a lot sooner on shallow downhills, and when trying to sprint to 30 mph. Otherwise, it's got a lot of close shifts. The usual 11-28 cassette lets you stay in the 34 chainring up past 20 mph, but with this cassette, you'd want to shift to the big ring before 17-18 mph.

Maelochs

Awesome work rm-rf.

Carbonfiberboy 

One of my bikes is a 6603. I run 52-39-26 in front and 11-25 in back. Could go 11-27. That's a perfect setup, shifts fine. I have a 6503 bike with the same rings in front and a 12-27 in back. Too low for most things but hellish fun when I need it. I have about 55,000 miles on the 6503, replaced the right shifter at about 30,000, never the left. I have a new set of 6603 brifters sitting out in the shop. Maybe I'll use them before I die, maybe I won't.

bikemig 

You could also get one of those wide compact cranks. Sugino makes one that's kind of pricey, the ox601d. You could run a 44/28 crank with a 11/32 cassette. You'll need the long cage ultegra RD but your brifters will work just fine with this set up.

If going with a triple (I like them and I like the tighter cassettes you can run with them), there is a lot to be said for bar end shifters because they're friction on the left. You can trim the FD and this will work with any crank you choose. The sugino triple you linked to is a fine square taper crank with 110/74 bcd rings. Easy to find rings and easy to find a quality square taper BB for it as well. I'm not confident you can get a triple shimano brifter to work well with the crank set. The crank is, I believe, 8-9 speed compatible so this could be an issue.

Maelochs

I really cannot afford this right now but I Really ... no, no, I Don't want to put it on my bike. I don't ... really.

Carbonfiberboy 

Yeah, after looking at a gear-inches chart, it's hard to see why this isn't the standard setup. I love it for pass climbing. And I use the 52 or 53 (the 52 rings are getting harder to find) a lot, especially in hilly or rolly terrain.

seypat

I have done several weight tests between compact double and triple setups within the same level of Shimano(105, 600) components and others as well. The triple has always been the lightest if the compact setup has to have a big cog in the 32 or above range. With the triple you can usually run 28t or below in the back and usually not have to have a long cage derailleur. It seems that an extra ring in front is lighter than a couple of big cogs in back. Even with a long cage RD there is no weight loss.

I would agree that a triple with a 52ish/40ish/granny is just about the perfect setup. It gives you the flexibility/options of having 2 rings to use all of the gears with. There is usually an overlap at the range limits of the rings. This gives you options and smooth transitions. Stuff like wind and slight terrain changes are not a problem because you can always find a gear that works. Heck, I have ridden centuries with triples and 5, 6, or 7 speed straight blocks before. Not a bad setup for those particular rides. I also have one ride that I have a "compact 50/36/28" for. The "bailout" ring is actually the 50. It is used very little on that particular ride. Most of it is split between the 36 and 28.

Ericoschmitt

I really don't often need the 12 cog for cruising, but I do use it downhill, and have used in sprint, fast peloton cruising, behind trucks. But I'd probably be fine with a 13t top. Being a fixie rider gave me a good spin skill.

I also have extensively used those gear calculators, having in mind how many gears of the cassete are usable in each chainring. So id probably use a 24t granny and be fine in a 12-25 cassete. My options in Brazil are very limited, and it will take a while until some friend goes to US and bring me that dream setup. Import taxes here are ridiculously high, and go over shipping costs too. (This is a tip for anyone whishing to travel to Brazil for "free": bring whatever, resell it here. Over 100% profit. Pays for the plane tickets.)

But that campy 3x11 is my dream setup! Might get it by june!

I have finally found someone selling a 6603 groupset, in my city! Only problem is the BCD limits the small ring to 30, and using that 12-28 cassete gives me another gap. But this will do for a while. This month I have two "climbing" races with 15% gradients that make anyone climb at 10k/h. One of then has the whole 1hour course climbing, which i did 11,5k/h avg speed with 39x25 and a ridiculous 57rpm cadence, and the other has 60km flat of laps and one 12min climb to the finish that i do at 10k/h, yet lower cadence. For both I'd happily use a 1:1 gear ratio. So I think I'll be fine with this groupset and 12-28 until I build my dream bike with campagnolo triple!

Ericoschmitt

When thinking about my ideal setup, I considered that on the small ring you can use 7 gears, middle one might do 8, but the 9th gear might get the chain rubbing the big ring, so thats 7 too, and on the big ring at least 7 too, but its much easier crossing chain on the big ring as it wont rub anything. So if you start on a 24 or 25 granny, the derraileur can still manage the 15 tooth gap to the 39, and you might aswell have a 56 big ring no problems. This way you can get a 13-25 cassete (same ratio as 53x12), no gaps, big range, 24x25 low gear. Just perfect.

One might have some hard time shifting 5 gears in the back when jumping to the small ring, but other than that, shold work fine. Or you can just go all the way to the lowest gear on the middle ring. If it works on double, should be OK "crossing" on triple.

If you take a look at the gear calculator, you will see this theoretical setup gives you all the range while always spinning between 88 and 93rpm. I get a hard on just looking at that table.

Ericoschmitt

What crankset did you use to have a 25 ring? The 6603 has a 92BCD which only allows for a 30t. I've seen a dealer in UK that makes 74bcd triples and sells custom rings from 24 to 66... do you have one of those?? Also sugino has this setup.

Ericoschmitt

I also cant understand why triples are not the standard among amateurs (or even pros). You can get a 3x7 groupset with corncob cassete to have the same ratios and range as a 2x10, while being MUCH cheaper. Considering 8 and 9 speeds are also quite cheap, one might get a great ride out of that.

I had a hybrid with 3x7 deore which I regret having sold. I mounted some bullhorn in the middle of my short flat bars that made it look like spinacci bars, or TT front or whatever. It rode just as fast as my road one, that with 35mm tires. Sold it so cheap...

Carbonfiberboy 

26 ring. I must have the model number wrong as it's a 74 BCD.

Ericoschmitt

I also cant understand why triples are not the standard among amateurs (or even pros). You can get a 3x7 groupset with corncob cassete to have the same ratios and range as a 2x10, while being MUCH cheaper. Considering 8 and 9 speeds are also quite cheap, one might get a great ride out of that.

I had a hybrid with 3x7 deore which I regret having sold. I mounted some bullhorn in the middle of my short flat bars that made it look like spinacci bars, or TT front or whatever. It rode just as fast as my road one, that with 35mm tires. Sold it so cheap...

Ericoschmitt

Hi guys, just to let you know that I could find all the parts to build an Athena 3x11 groupset, and a friend is bringing me the parts to Brazil in a few weeks! I think that solves all my problems without any parts mixing.
It will take a while longer to ride it because I'm getting a custom frame made for that, but I'll let you know how that rides later. Too bad campagnolo discontinued this groupset!